Are F1 penalties still adequate?

[Just_a_fan]

Any penalty thats not a track limits should be 15s. Crowding is ok if there's no major penalty for crowded driver (ham-ver in melbourne, all incidents in T1-T2 in italy). So all stays as it is, except 5s is 15s.

Crowding a driver off track is an offence mentioned in the rules. The rules don't see it as being ok.

applying 15s to every infraction other than track limits, seems a little heavy handed in some cases and insufficient in others. It's like someone doing a year in prison for stealing an apple and someone else also doing a year for murder.

Drive trough used to be preferred method in past, and that one was indeed heavy handed, but now we've gone completely the other way. 15s is reasonable, and completely unlike what you try to portray with that analogy. If you yeet someone's race like ham did to piastri, russell to sainz in cota, or sainz to alo in melbourne, that now get 5s, should then definitely get 15s. Blatantly cutting the corner as russell did in spain and now in italy - also 15s. dude outright admitted f**k the rules, rather take the penalty, so this has to be prevented.

At the very least 5s should be 10s, minimum, but 15s would be much higher deterrent.

It should be the same with engine and gearbox penalties. New component? Back of the grid. Then strategic penalties would be gone very quickly (verstappen stockpiling in 22, 23, hamilton new engine every race in 21).

Brake checking ok at 15s or is that too much/not enough?

The issue is that the discussion is predicated (even though the OP suggested we shouldn't) on the actions of particular drivers at particular moments.

Forcing off the track is considered OK, it seems, but Max in Brazil 21 was well over the line. That was straight up cheating but, because it was a title fight, no action. That would have been 15s under the "15s for everything other than a minor moment" scheme. Do you agree?

[Juzh]

Crowding a driver off track is an offence mentioned in the rules. The rules don't see it as being ok.

applying 15s to every infraction other than track limits, seems a little heavy handed in some cases and insufficient in others. It's like someone doing a year in prison for stealing an apple and someone else also doing a year for murder.

Drive trough used to be preferred method in past, and that one was indeed heavy handed, but now we've gone completely the other way. 15s is reasonable, and completely unlike what you try to portray with that analogy. If you yeet someone's race like ham did to piastri, russell to sainz in cota, or sainz to alo in melbourne, that now get 5s, should then definitely get 15s. Blatantly cutting the corner as russell did in spain and now in italy - also 15s. dude outright admitted f**k the rules, rather take the penalty, so this has to be prevented.

At the very least 5s should be 10s, minimum, but 15s would be much higher deterrent.

It should be the same with engine and gearbox penalties. New component? Back of the grid. Then strategic penalties would be gone very quickly (verstappen stockpiling in 22, 23, hamilton new engine every race in 21).

Brake checking ok at 15s or is that too much/not enough?

The issue is that the discussion is predicated (even though the OP suggested we shouldn't) on the actions of particular drivers at particular moments.

Forcing off the track is considered OK, it seems, but Max in Brazil 21 was well over the line. That was straight up cheating but, because it was a title fight, no action. That would have been 15s under the "15s for everything other than a minor moment" scheme. Do you agree?

Yes, I agree to all of these being 15s, but it is what it is, I'm not the fia tbh I forgot what penalty max got for brake check, if it was 5s, then it should be 15s yes. As I said, apart from track limits, pretty much everything that got a 5s should be 15s, this would force drivers to consider the penalty before committing to a move.

[organic]

I agree that 5s is far too small of a punishment for many of the things that it is given for. That the track limit penalty is the same as causing a collision in terms of race result is ridiculous imo

I'm not sure FIA consider what max did in Brazil 2021 as illegal even though it obviously was. They didn't penalize that then, and they don't penalize similar moves since then. Just at Italy we had a similar situation a lap or two before the pia-ham contact: they came into chicane, went too hot and Oscar ends up straightlining the chicane so Hamilton is forced to as well enabling oscar to keep track position. It is something that needs looking at imo

[Sevach]

I agree that 5s is far too small of a punishment for many of the things that it is given for. That the track limit penalty is the same as causing a collision in terms of race result is ridiculous imo

I'm not sure FIA consider what max did in Brazil 2021 as illegal even though it obviously was. They didn't penalize that then, and they don't penalize similar moves since then. Just at Italy we had a similar situation a lap or two before the pia-ham contact: they came into chicane, went too hot and Oscar ends up straightlining the chicane so Hamilton is forced to as well enabling oscar to keep track position. It is something that needs looking at imo

I agree, and i also think that "aggressive crowding" should be looked at even if there's no actual touch, it happened a couple of times in Monza, the difference between them and the Hamilton one was in one there was contact.

Maybe "yellow card", then 5s if there's a repeat (15 if there's contact).

[Juzh]

Maybe "yellow card", then 5s if there's a repeat (15 if there's contact).

We had a "yellow card" already with Leclercs black & white flag in 2019, it's too lenient. Penalty must be immediate, drivers can't just have a joker stunt to pull in their locker.

edit. edited correct flag for lec

[AR3-GP]

I agree that 5s is far too small of a punishment for many of the things that it is given for. That the track limit penalty is the same as causing a collision in terms of race result is ridiculous imo

I'm not sure FIA consider what max did in Brazil 2021 as illegal even though it obviously was. They didn't penalize that then, and they don't penalize similar moves since then. Just at Italy we had a similar situation a lap or two before the pia-ham contact: they came into chicane, went too hot and Oscar ends up straightlining the chicane so Hamilton is forced to as well enabling oscar to keep track position. It is something that needs looking at imo

Penalties also usually require some squeaky wheeling from the team that has been hampered. So considering that Hamilton eventually passed Piastri, maybe Mercedes dropped it?

We already know they put on blindfolds for teammate conflict because again you need a team shouting to even start many investigations and that doesn't happen when it's between teammates.

Penalty application has never ever been systematic.

[SiLo]

I hate that they ignore issues between teammates. It's inconsistent. Punish them all accordingly.

Agree on 5s. Keep it for track limits and ONLY track limits. 15s should be the minimum punishment for other transgressions. Penalties may seem harsh, but they help clean up the racing a lot, which has really taken a nosedive in recent years for the "show".

[Juzh]

I hate that they ignore issues between teammates. It's inconsistent. Punish them all accordingly.

last one I remember is 2017 hungary Ver-Ric crash on lap 1, Verstappen got 10s for that. I don't remember any other one since.

[Cs98]

I do agree about one thing, the stewards have to take the outcome into account. I don't know where this notion that the stewards shouldn't account for the outcome when deciding a penalty came from. We don't do this in real life. When you break the law and cause some form of damage, the extent of that damage will obviously be taken into account when your punishment is decided upon, regardless of intent. I feel like we do this in certain F1 situations too, like when Grosjean got a race ban. The action in isolation wasn't worthy of a race ban, the consequence was.

[Big Tea]

I hate that they ignore issues between teammates. It's inconsistent. Punish them all accordingly.

Agree on 5s. Keep it for track limits and ONLY track limits. 15s should be the minimum punishment for other transgressions. Penalties may seem harsh, but they help clean up the racing a lot, which has really taken a nosedive in recent years for the "show".

It loses context when it is a set penalty. For instance, one of the top 6 cars can easily hide a 5 sec penalty and lot lose a place but someone running 7-10 can fall right off the board with 5 sec.

[bjpower]

i think the issue is not so much the amount of time but more when the penalty is taken. next pitstop or end of the race.
there should be a penalty area you have to drive through at a limited speed the next lap. maybe a slow lane down the straight etc.

[piast9]

If we get back to the first post in that thread. I agree that 5 s penalty for overtaking off the track may not be that harsh if you can pull away. Something that would deter drivers from doing that trick on regular basis are the penalty point on the license. I am not sure if you get them for that kind of infraction.

Something that would force to give back the places would be a drive-through penalty. You don't need to create any penalty areas or slow lanes. The drive-through is more severe than 5 s but I don't consider 5 s a fair penalty for gaining an advantage by going off-track or causing a collision. By the way - what have happened with drive-throughs? I've not seen any for ages.

And finally - making the penalty dependent on the outcome of the infraction is a bad thing. You should be penalized for the action and intention, not the outcome. If you cause a collision the penalty should be the same regardless of if the wing was broken or not. The penalty may vary on if you just squeezed someone at the corner when you both fought for the grip or if you did "a Grosjean".

[west52keep64]

i,e - A drive through. When was the last time we saw one of those?
Or a stop and go penalty?

Drive through - Hungarian Grand Prix 2016, Jenson Button because had received assistance via the radio on the parade lap (I think).

Stop go - Italian Grand Prix 2020, both Lewis Hamilton & Antonio Giovinazzi for entering pit lane when closed.

[RZS10]

Anyone here?

[Just_a_fan]

Anyone here?

No penalties to discuss at the moment. Presumably with blocking now being OK, there will be many fewer penalties to discuss.