Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Ciro Pabón
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riff_raff, let me assure you that the current flywheel technology produces safe flywheels. Please, read what I wrote in this thread about how they cope with the issue you raise. Secondly, I won't be totally sure about they "storing" more energy than a wheel: the wheel weights much more than a rotor. The difference with a wheel is their ultra low friction.

You have a point with hydraulic equipment. All I can say is that I've used (and operated) a lot of hydraulic equipment and I've never heard (it could happen...) an operator injured by an explosion of the hydraulic tanks. Ever. By the same token you could forbid gas tanks: they also store a lot of energy and they could "release" it in an accident.

Sure an electric motor tends to be heavy. I would say they tend to be dense, more than heavy: an internal explossion engine is heavy too. They have a couple of things in their favor: they can replace the brakes. And they are lighter than a "regular" engine. Just check the size of the Atom engine: this thing won over a Porsche on a drag race, my man. This engines have less accesories (water pump, generator, oil pump, valves and the such) than a gasoline one. Check here what they are capable of, even taking in account the dead weight of batteries: viewtopic.php?t=2599 (does somebody follow the links I give? :) )

Image

Of course, you're right: Nature imposes some limits and has its own "regulations", that point you in a direction, but engineering is the art of tricking Nature into doing whatever you wish. Besides, one thing is the "natural limit" and another thing is the engineering: the last one involves making the damn thing work, and this, riff_raff, this is an art. Trust the guys at Ferrari, McLaren and the rest: they will blow your mind, I bet.
Ciro

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checkered
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It'd take a lot of convincing

for me to support/appreciate flywheels as "the" regenerative technology that will carry F1 further on the "green circuit". The hybrids on offer to consumers sure don't carry such devices, so flywheels weren't the first choice there either. "Relevance" is supposed to be one of the deciding factors in evolving F1 towards the future.

Actually, I'm a bit amazed that the flywheel solution seems to have emerged as the most immediate candidate so far. A couple of former Renault engineers have already established a company called Flybrid Systems with the intention of providing braking-energy storage and recovery systems, with an eye on 2009 (or was it pushed back to 2010?) introduction to F1.

I'm sure they have considered the issue in more depth than me and I am not questioning their business savvy, engineering expertise, rationale in any way etc. but I do have reservations about flywheels (and "regeneration") on many different levels nonetheless. I'll explain a couple of my main worries here.

First, I believe the word "regeneration" points to a needlessly complicated solution, mixed motives and a devaluation of competitiviness, compared to just referring to improving "efficiency" in general with regard to the energy cycle. In fact, "regenerative" equipment can be used without any gain in efficiency! Green values might be misused for the purpose of offering justification in introducing "push to pass", which in my mind ill suits what F1 should stand for as the pinnacle of automotive technology and racing.

It is artificial and frankly pandering to what some people think the "average" F1 fan wants. That is badly underestimating the audience, most of whom will be driving, and understanding, hybrids soon anyway. It implies that at any moment, all the allocated potential energy isn't immediately usable to the F1 driver to go the fastest possible via the allowed technological means within the race framework.

It is far worse gimmickry than active suspension or TC could ever be in sporting terms (banning TC will make F1 less efficient, btw), between the teams and drivers in its artificiality and eventual inscrutability. It severely threatens the concept of "honest" racing in the sport in favor of a "show" with little or no environmental gain, in real, relevant or conceptual terms.

I wish we were closer to a "zero carbon" fuel cycle i.e. a 100% biofuel era, instead of mainly burning fossils. Sadly, the current biofuel infrastructure is far from sustainable, at least yet and I'm not too optimistic about the direction market forces have pushed the biofuel trade. Large areas of the World look to be subjected to non-food producing monocultures which is not very forward thinking when we look at population projections and our dependence on finite diversity in our planet.

The monocultures, like the sugar plantations in Brazil, also make for rather untenable living and working conditions for large numbers of migrant workers and their families - unacceptable by any standard, in short. And I'd rather be eating corn than filling my gas tank with it. Until there's a sustainable and humane way to produce biofuels in large scale, I can't and won't support those any more than I would support the continual use of fossils. Which brings me back, short of considering an all-electric F1 for instance, to flywheels and the need to improve overall efficiency drastically - and my second worry.

As the laws of thermodynamics dictate, energy isn't lost, it is only converted in various ways. The way the energy released in a chemical reaction in a normal ICE divides through the operation of a normal street going vehicle, as I understand it (very roughly), is thus (I'm consulting a diagram in a paper from the International Conference on Thermoelectrics, 2006, hosted by the US DOE, for this purpose):

Dissipated via coolant and exhaust - almost 75%
Mechanical energy - 25%

Of the mechanical energy, half goes to ancillaries and transmission, the rest towards road-resistance. Braking energy represents a third of the road resistance, or a grand total of a little over 4% (!) of all the energy. Now, compare the division between the energy dissipated via coolant/exhaust to the amount mechanical energy and you might understand my misgivings about tinkering within the "mechanical energy" bracket alone.

In terms of F1 performance, harnessing braking energy won't make much of a dent. In the larger framework none of our larger problems will be anywhere near solved (or even alleviated) if we can't change the current overall thermodynamical balance of the ICE (or ICE-hybrid) very drastically.

In short, I'm currently of the mind that hybrid efforts during the "homologation" of F1 engines should concentrate on improving the overall thermodynamical efficiency of the engines. This should be done in a way that preserves/retains the potential energy only in the form of the fuel (and possibly electricity) in the vehicle. All the energy released via the combustion of the fuel (or electrochemical reaction), however it is harnessed, should be immediately controlled by the driver and not retained to be used for controlling forward propulsion by any other means than the accelerator itself.

This applies to braking energy as well. I will not be convinced of the merits of braking-related "push to pass" based on ecological (or sporting) considerations unless I encounter some plausible information that completely contradicts what I've written above. The main challenge, IMHO, is elsewhere and concentrating on harnessing braking energy really is a distraction from that.

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Ciro Pabón
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checkered wrote:Actually, I'm a bit amazed that the flywheel solution seems to have emerged as the most immediate candidate so far.
Well, the reason for flywheels being explored is that regulations forbid any other kind of engine. Apparently, this rules out electric motors and the such. We've been waiting for regulations to change, but they haven't. Check 5.2.1:
5.2 Other means of propulsion :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the 2.4 litre, four stroke engine described in 5.1 above, to power the car, is not permitted.
5.2.2 The total amount of recoverable energy stored on the car must not exceed 300kJ. Any which may be recovered at a rate greater than 2kW must not exceed 20kJ.
The regulations mention (on the fly) that you can use heat exchangers and hydraulic systems, but I don't know how this blends with the rule I post. I confess I haven't searched the Appendixes. Perhaps somebody can explain THAT.

I believed 2008 regulations also contemplate exhaust heat recovery: now I don't find it anything that mentions it.

I fail to imagine how heat recovery can be used, taking in account rule 5.2, unless you say that hydraulic or electric motors aren't engines. Perhaps my problem arises from the fact that in spanish there is just one word for "motor" and "engine".

About the amount of land that you must devote to ethanol production, I mentioned 11 Ha per car, which is a lot. The truth is that you create a "closed cycle": the carbon you produce in the car is returned to the land when the plants grow, or so goes the theory. I believe that's not sustainable: a quick calculation shows that if USA used 50% ethanol on their cars, they should devote (let's say) 150 million cars multiplied by 5 Has per car, that is, around 7 million square kilometers. USA has 9.6 million km2, total...

Twisted joke (how low have I gone? I have to announce them!):

Of course, that is irrelevant, according to "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", because there are no cars in the universe. It explains this rather nicely:

1) Space is infinite

2) Only a finite number of planets are inhabited

3) Any finite number divided by infinity is so close to nothing as to make no difference, therefore the number of inhabited planets, and thus people, is zero, and anyone you meet along the way is just a figment of a deranged imagination.

Since there are no people in the universe, nobody is around to build cars, and even if they could, they would have nobody to market them to. So it seems the whole automobile industry is one of the worst bussiness decisions in the entire universe.

:lol:

Seriously, I already gave this illustrations, but some don't have time to follow links (ehem... not you, Carlos). Perhaps they can give you some ideas, checkered:

Size of country proportional to CO2 contribution
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Size of country proportional to population
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Transportation and land use
Image

My extrapolation about "Peak of World Population" (there is hope for planners!)
Image

"Coal was again the world's fastest growing fuel and global consumption growth was twice the 10-year average. Growth was concentrated in China, the largest coal consumer, which accounts for 80% of global growth. Growth in USA was also relatively strong."
Image

I was unable to find again (Manchild, help!) where did I posted something about the most efficient way to produce energy: a coal plant with scrubbers, recovery of heat energy and production of sulphur products on the exit. I saw it at Wikipedia. I know I posted the image.

I think that any advance in automotive technology for saving fuel is important. Some people have suggested to limit the amount of fuel for the race and open the fuel regulations. That could work wonders.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 20 Apr 2007, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro

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jddh1
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dude, WOW!! I mean I knew about all that, but summarizing it like that kinda hits you.

Carlos
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Since the thread has expanded to include not only F1 but the world wide effects burning hydrocarbons - and coal for power generation - the major source of pollution - these links on cleaning coal power plants may be of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidized_bed_combustion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FutureGen
http://coal.silesia.pl/index.php?option ... =1&lang=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_coal_technology

Coal burning for electricity can be vastly improved - as the Earth's most abundant and cheapest sourse of energy - this would solve many problems.

I hope it does not lead F1 to coal fired powerplants :wink:

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Ciro Pabón
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Thank you jddh1. You're very kind. You maybe will like to read this. Sorry for the telegraphic style, but I'm pressed hard to work! Thank heaven: when I have time I can write 3 pages posts that put everybody to cringe! :shock:

Yes, Carlos, that is what I mentioned, thank you friend. The illustration is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle
Image

To the left, a coal crusher (gray) and an air compressor (blue). You gassify the mix of coal and air (orange), cool it and desulphurize by hydrolisis (brown), extract the rest of sulphur (green) and burn the gas in a turbine (red and blue thingie to the righ) that moves a generator (top red thingie to the right). The excess heat from gassification and from turbine feeds a steam generator and that is used to move a second electric generator (bottom red thingie to the right).

The huge problem is the yellow box to the right: this thing is producing all the sulphur you scrub in the second stage, plus most of the radioactive materials contained in carbon. It goes to a hypothetical "acid plant". In reality, this has gone to a river or to an ash pile since humanity started to use carbon plants.

THAT is the problem with electric cars: WHERE do you think the electricity for your Prius comes from? Besides, China is firing a new coal plant EACH WEEK (sorry for capitals, but I wonder if people don't understand that). :?

You can joke, dear Carlos, about that technology NOT being used in cars. Ha! Let me quote:
Although combined cycles have traditionally only been used in large power plants, BMW has a proposal to deploy such a system in automobiles by using exhaust heat to drive a steam turbine. There is also the possibility of using the pistons in a reciprocating engine for both combustion and steam expansion."
We had a thread on this ideas, first on what is called a six-stroke engine: viewtopic.php?t=2565

In essence, you push water on a "normal" engine, creating two more strokes on top of the four conventional strokes. The heated cylinder produces steam.

Bruce Crowe's Six-Stroke Engine
Image

Second, in that same thread we talked about the "turbo-steamer concept": take the exhaust heat, create steam and expand it on a chamber connected to the crankshaft:

BMW Turbosteamer
Image

Both ideas (IGCC or Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle AND steam expansion or six-stroke engines) are solidly based on the venerable energy cycle studied by Carnot. They are routinely used on more expensive and cleaner gas turbines, used to produce electricity:
In a combined cycle power plant (CCPP), or combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) plant, a gas turbine generator generates electricity and the waste heat from the gas turbine is used to make steam to generate additional electricity via a steam turbine; this last step enhances the efficiency of electricity generation. Most new gas power plants are of this type.
Siemens SGT5 gas turbine: allegedly, world record holder of thermodynamic efficiency combining the Brayton and Rankine cycles to give you 60% efficiency, instead of the 30% you get when you use just one cycle (like in cars)
Image

Why is all this relevant to F1? Perhaps I should have started with this:

Peace in our times: Fia and GPMA representatives end their feud (that took several years to solve!)
Image

What did they said at that meeting?
We have complete agreement on all the issues. The engine freeze came forward to 2007 and we are now totally agreed on the principles on which we are going to approach the future.

... perhaps the biggest single issue which confronts the car industry worldwide, namely the reduction of the output of CO2. That’s why in the shorter term we are looking at energy-recovery and re-use from braking. That will come in 2009.

...And then recovery and re-use of the excess heat or waste heat from the engines. We intend to have a regulation for that before 2010.

...we are looking at the possibility of a completely new F1 engine reflecting the industry tendency which is to have a downsized, turbo-charged engine.

... we are combining active steering with electronic microsystems and anti-rollbars to a new functionality. So electronics and software technology will play a major rol(e) in car technology in future. So that is also an area we are discussing. There might be a future in F1 racing where we are ahead of technology.

... It is interesting to make an engine capable of 22,000 rpm but there is no interest within the car industry to have such an engine.

... capacity would be up for discussion because we don’t want to have a ridiculous level of horsepower. What we would be looking at is probably bringing in the regulation in 2011. There would then be a fuel-flow valve and you would size the engine so it still ran up in the 18,000-19,000 bracket... Then the size of the engine could be a function of the fuel you were using, probably a bio fuel...

...you’ll be amazed to hear that this car has the same or similar technology and has the same or better performance than the car of 5 years ago but only uses 60 per cent of the fuel

Q: So just to be clear on that, the Ron Dennis’s of this world would be completely bypassed and it would be people at the board level of Mercedes that would be talking about rules, is that right?

MM: I do not think this means we bypass Ron Dennis. It would be a three-stage process.
THIS is the reason why we have this thread.
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checkered
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Yes, well, I was

referring to the rules denying other ”engines” than the current 2.4 among other things, albeit only implicitly, since this “recovery” phase is just step one in the FIA framework. I just took the current regulations as a given, so didn’t feel compelled to point the content out in detail. Obviously the rules need to change to accommodate recent developments in hybrid- and efficiency technology. During my time at the BBC 5Live I used to advocate progressively stricter fuel limits (in a straight relation to any improvements in performance) for F1 per race, quite fervently in fact. That might even open up chances to use any imaginable (nontoxic and safe) fuels and very innovative propulsion technologies, if the energy limit was measured simply in joules (measuring the fuels’ energy concentration). But perhaps this borders on being too nerdy. I’d certainly love to see it tried out.

I understand fully why the thread was named “regenerative systems”; that being the catch phrase. I’m just afraid that it masks too much. Efficiency is a much clearer cut and absolute term – it is either better or it isn’t.

I veered towards the biofuel issue only because I’m very familiar with the Mosley/Goetschel “interview” (it was made to look like that, anyway ...) since it was first published and knew it contained references to biofuels. So, rest assured, I'm firmly on the map with this one. Thus I felt discussing the prospect of current biofuels, its merits and its ramifications in the short term (within the FIA plan) wasn’t extending off-topic. The accord between the manufacturers and F1 happening at this point of history is no coincidence, the industry and its keepers are safeguaring their societal and global position by trying to dominate the main venues that produce innovation in the field. So privateers are either in a short leash or have faded away. Not to mention the co-operation of the energy sector, with the ever more heavy participation of investment funds that draw from fossil derivative energy. I wonder if all the new automotive theme parks and such are even supposed to be profitable in their own right? By oil company profit margins, the investment is a pittance anyway. F1 finds itself at the foot of powers greater than the imagination and sporting spirit that gave birth to the sport, a classic victim of success. We’ll find out soon enough if that imagination proves a more potent force (than stagnation?), or if the strain proves too destructive.

If so, there might be an opening for an innovative, top-tier, energy restricted open wheel racing series. Call it “Formula Zero” (for emissions, if you like). Thanks to broadband, even clenching TV time isn’t such an issue anymore. Just stream the darn thing, incorporate official simulator tournaments with real drivers squaring off with fans, anything ... the current official F1 site is pretty apathetic anyway, propably by contractual necessity. Don’t take it that I wouldn’t cherish F1 anyway, I do. I only hope that in its small part, constructive criticism can make the sport stronger and better founded. And perhaps affect things more widely ... the talent is there. Tough love.

A few notions on the (unintentional) expansion of the subject ...

Perhaps I should have been clearer about the biofuel issue; I’m not completely against it, just seeing it as developing to very short sighted and counterproductive directions. Getting a better thermodynamical efficiency out of ICEs will of course alleviate any demand on arable land. Ethanol and oils can also be retrieved quite efficiently from cultivated forests by the accompanying industrial processes such as paper production, which poses no threat to food production. A largely unexplored option is to use the seas, as an excess of nutrients and rising surface temps already pose a problem, areas that aren’t vital for fisheries, plankton or diversity in general could concertedly be used to produce biomass in the form of algae and seaweed. We might even see artificially engineered salt water ecosystems being built on deserts that are already salinized and thus incompatible with normal agriculture – much farther off in the future, of course.

I wouldn’t go as far as calling coal “the Earth's most abundant and cheapest source of energy”. It is a time delayed biochemical depository derivative of what continues to be the most abundant and cheapest source of energy – the sun. It powers one heck of an ecosystem and a host of mindbogglingly huge physical phenomena on our planet and we as a species are inept enough to not get every bit of energy we need from those. How’bout that? Anything else is tinkering. Combined cycle plants are highly experimental and I would be very cautious in calling those a solution yet; even more so since there have been grave problems in so called “carbon trading”. I understand that some companies that are operating both in carbon trading and non-carbon trading countries have cleaned up their act at the former and invested the money from the sold carbon credits to more polluting technology in the latter. At this rate, perhaps societies’ money would be better spent by donating solar cells, heat pumps and such to everybody for free.

The turbo-steamer adds some complexity to the engine, but looks moderately encouraging (especially in the light of the efficiency). The loop isn’t obviously perfected yet, since some heat needs to be lost via a typical radiator. Optimally the steaming process should manage the exhaust and the engine temperature through the phase changes themselves, right? The challenge would be to integrate the processes even better. I couldn’t immediately decide whether the technologies are comparable in any meaningful way, but modern ship diesels inject micro water droplets straight into the combustion chamber itself to form steam. At least this brings down NOx emissions and I wouldn’t think it impossible if the process didn’t improve efficiency, too. But I’d be surprised if it came anywhere close in efficiency to a secondary turbine unit.

Carlos
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There is a historical reference to the FIA and energy efficency - in the 60's reading about Le Mans rules and regulations there was an Index of Efficency award/winner - Colin Chapman was said to be very interested in this idea. Concerning alternate fuel sources, there is a growing interest in ocean floor gass hydrates. Methane deposites under such pressure they have been discribed as frozen slush... this could very well be our next energy source.

http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas- ... title.html
http://www.ornl.gov/info/reporter/no16/methane.htm

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checkered
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Carlos,

I didn't know Le Mans was so forward thinking in the '60's! I'd better investigate further as I haven't been such a fan of Le Mans before. Anyway, if Colin Chapman himself has been interested in something, it's a pretty good indication that others should take a long, hard look into the matter themselves. 8)

The methane issue is interesting ... it's such a potent greenhouse gas. I'd like to see calculations on whether, in theory, it's be more beneficial to "burn" (i.e. somehow oxidize) the amount that is potentially going to be released from the permafrost deposits to the atmosphere anyway. There's some research to methane oxidation in different soil types, I know, but I haven't really gone through it. On the face of it, the

CH4 + 2O2 ---> CO2 + 2H2O

doesn't seem like such a bad tradeoff by comparison. The practicalities of doing it are another matter - frankly I can't imagine any collection or other large scale method that'd work. Wrapping half of Siberia in massive plastic carpets? :? But anyhow, the stuff is aplicable to fuel cells, so here's hoping ...

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... cells.html

riff_raff
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"energy efficiency" is a misleading benchmark. What you should consider is "economic efficiency" when looking at energy sources for your vehicle. The free market is supremely efficient at determining what energy source we use. Right now gasoline is cost effective, so that is what we use. When we run out of that, something else that is more cost effective (ammonia, bio-fuels, coal-to-liquids, methane hydrates) will take it's place. But it's something the free markets should determine. Not a bunch of bungling, nanny-state beauracrats. Imposing artificial limits only corrupts and stifles the creative, evolutionary process that is engineering. And race engineering is no different.

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“Energy efficiency” is THE benchmark, at least

in the short term until we have the ability to get to grips with zero CO2 energy cycles. I think you’re missing the point if you think striving for energy efficiency is in any way contrary to a free market economy. Or do you think that Wal Mart, for example, is in the hands of wild tree-hugging philantrophists because they’re actively working for less energy hungry trucks, projecting an efficiency for their fleet two times better than now by 2015?

No, they’re looking to reduce their overhead and taking measures to project a responsible image towards their own customers in a future that, to put it mildly, by all projections is “climatologically challenged”. They will place orders for their trucks from those manufacturers that meet their challenge best, and as they’re a major client, the manufacturers will fall over each other to accommodate their wishes.

http://transport.seekingalpha.com/article/24037

In my view, the problem is that energy has really never been a free market commodity. Energy grids have been knowingly built mostly as one way funnels, discouraging competition. Global power politics have dictated (and alas, the trend continues) that only very centralized, mostly authoritarian, energy structures have been supported. This has spawned cartels, national and international, and a wave of nationalisations of oil fields and oil companies only very recently. Cartels aren’t born solely because some practices are profitable – since they limit competition, they’re very useful in making a killing from things that shouldn’t be profitable at all. They’re symptomatic. The likes of Exxon and Shell are examples of major private companies that work by free market principles (and try to diversify), but represent only a fraction of the global oil and gas fields and IMHO have to trade in a very distorted marketplace.

Armies require weapons and energy, and it is only “logical” within a shortsighted framework to construct grids and structures that require the civilian community to join in and thus subsidize the upkeep of those operations. (US army is the largest single oil consumer in the country by a huge margin, Iran has offered “energy independency” as a rationale for their nukes program etc.) Quite naturally then, these things create instability, massive inefficiency, distort the economy beyond recognition and create forces that prohibit any real free market competition and favor vested interests, oligarchs, goal oriented religious extremism etc. It is a vicious cycle, one that economical, environment, social and security considerations may force us to break, finally.

This requires foresight and thought. Security is much more complex than having the biggest guns, and wealth in a free market economy is much more diverse than only the green stuff that can be found in wallets. (No, it isn't mold either!) Wealth made of is productivity and efficiency, and we’ve somehow disregarded the massive production that has gone on around us in the ecosystem. For free. We’ve destroyed a large part of that wealth production capability and are finding ourselves unable to reproduce it by our own wits and inefficient processes. We've broken the cycles instead of tapping into them. Our collective conscious human intelligence doesn’t yet match the innate sense in the processes of our planet. Too bad our stupidity managed to beat us to it.

In a decentralized, truly free market energy economy I can imagine gasoline would by no means be the most cost effective energy commodity to provide mobility. I believe the recent price hikes, so baffling to many, are just beginning to uncover the reality as it becomes more and more expensive to patch up the facades of fundamentally unsustainable practices. Too bad change only seems to happen when it is forced upon us. We could have it so much easier.

California (I see you’ve listed that as your “location”) has had its moments at the hands of energy companies and their ways of operating in the “free market”, too. Not long ago, I vaguely remember, there were large scale blackouts when they weren’t up to the task, despite having beat their “competition” to provide power. I wonder, in what light you see the state environmental legislation of the recent administrations? The “Governator” being the latest to enact those sort of things. Surely the experiences and impressions can’t be all negative?

http://www.fypower.org/

There are of course challenges in how one goes about to incorporate the losses that occur in the environment (and subsequently economy) in 50 or more years after the action (and the profit)? The so called carbon trading has had serious issues because governments have originally set the CO2 quotas arbitrarily high and significant parts of the World are not incorporated in the scheme anyway. So I agree, bungling, nanny-state bureaucrats are not the answer. At least if they’re left at their own devices and dismissed as a separate incompetent entity out of hand.

A free market economy is not contrary to setting limits and perceiving them. We make such appraisals to determine what’s profitable and possible in such a system in the first place. Some limits can stifle competition, evolution and creativity, some can encourage those. (The biosphere has never been short of evolution!) That’s the difference between artificial and real limits. You should not assume that every limit is mainly artificial. To categorically go against any limits is an exercise in ideology, but in the end one can’t eat or breathe that.

There’s at least one thing that comes even before free markets, and that’s free thought. In F1, we can decide what we want , we can perceive what we need . I would say liberalizing technology and setting really tough energy limits (joules/mile), tightened every time more performance per gallon is tweaked out of the machines (to keep the speeds reasonable), is the best thing that could happen to the sport. Perhaps accompanied by less restrictive limits to completely renewable fuels.

In the same way we can decide what we want and need to do with our environment in a larger context in complete harmony with looking after our financial and patriotic hineys. I don’t claim to have much in the way of solutions and answers, or that my logic is somehow infallible. But I damn sure will make every effort to accommodate and preserve an environment that can enable and provide those answers and that logic. And that can happen only by exchanging free thoughts.

Carlos
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Siemens is working on an in-wheel electric motor/suspension/brake/steering system

http://www.siemensvdo.com/press/release ... -001-e.htm

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tomislavp4
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Some cool stuff :D
If I´m getting the suspension thing right, there will be no camber change at all... :roll:

Carlos
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Thanks for taking a look.

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checkered
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A 4WD, tyre integrated

electric motor/regenerative brake biofuelcell F1? Now, that'd be something different :shock: ... maybe they're not going to veer quite that far from the original concept. Not yet anyway. I kinda shudder to think just HOW efficient one could make the aero in such a racing vehicle. Downforce creating shapes should be regulated even further. Such major conceptual developments will be a hard sell ... but things aren't done in F1 because they're easy. Hopefully. Now, easy life is another matter :P .
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra