Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

[ESPImperium]

Push has come to shove now, and i have changed my stance and am now for standard power-trains. Cosworth engines were always good, Xtrac have been proven with Williams and latterly with Toyota for their gearboxes.

Whats needed now that a third way has been found to the take the standard or create a clone is more trimming of the F1 car. We have the standard ECU, one tyre manufacturer, but now we should look at standard suspension components strip away as much as practacly posible in the electronics department. As i said in another thread, take away the engine maps and all driver adjusted crap from the steering wheel. Just have a speed limiter, water button, pit comms, a hand clutch, reverse gear button, and the FIA LED Warning system for flags. Could we go back to a manual (Sequencial) gear stick as well to cut costs.

I thought it woild be Williams or FIF1 maybes even Toyota fo fall first, but Honda... Im shocked, i was under the illusion that they were in for the long haul. But with current global economic circumstances, push has come to shove and the Honda Motor Company is trying to keep to its core buisness and try to keep its employees in employment and trt to ensure the Honda Motor Companays uture in theese difficult climates we all face.

[alexbarwell]

But is one of theproblems with standardising so much that, for such a high-end series ever-increasing efforts will be required to come out on top. Key abenues of development will be blocked off this way, but efforts will get re-doubled into what were peripheral issues - in the past the key was power, then chassis, then aero, now energy recovery. With tyre, engine, aero, engine, geommetry and the drivers themselves in similar mental and physical condition, some thing has to give.

[WhiteBlue]

For the vast majority of fans it makes no difference what gearbox a car has. They watch for the drivers. If they can now save 90% on the gearbox as even the last team has seamless gearboxes it makes no sense to go into such expenses. There is a strong point for a standard.

I just hope that they will keep six engine designs next year and allow unlimited development for energy saving. Perhaps that will lead to more design freedom as they start t realize that all cars will have the same power and differentiation can be achieved by efficiency design. I do not think that they should wait for years and come up with a new formula. The rstrictions should be about customer sales price and engine power and very little else.

[Metar]

So your plan is this, if I understand correctly: Cosworth makes a 2.4l V8 based on the 2006 design (I assume that's their plan anyway?), sends out the torque-curve, to be regulated via ECUs, and teams get to optimize their engines, like now - only except increases in torque and power, they'll optimize efficiency, gaining the same power for less fuel?

Sounds great, actually.

[WhiteBlue]

Yes, this would be a good outcome. A sporting contest that would showcase drivers over the cars and let the manufacturers compete for a worthy objective that will also support their core business.

80 years ago the huge aircraft engines could develop more power than anybody could ever use in a race car. From that point in time competing for superior power didn't make sense any more.

People tried to avoid that truth by reinventing ever new formulae to limit power and performance. Perhaps it is time now to try a self limiting formula for efficiency. Some care should be taken to keep the excitement, but that isn't such a difficult task with so many experts around.

[flynfrog]

this has already been done and its even cheaper



why beat around the bush make f1 the same spec as Indy then we can have a huge world wide series.

Indy even uses crap fuel already so its "green" racing.

On this note I believe I will continue my ethanol testing at the pub

[donskar]

Yes I adore the last engine that became a defacto standard engine, the Cosworth DFV 3liter, but F1 got very boring when almost every car on the track had one, maybe there's a compromise, since the cylinder head design is what makes horsepower, why not use a standard short block and all the manufacturers could do their own heads and proudly put their name on the cam covers, and save development money?

A sane and responsible idea! =D>

[donskar]

as one of the key bits that would carry their badge may have little to do with them.

Although funnily enough the manufacturers have been buying engines for years... its just a bit more obvious now.... how many actual Mercedes Engineers are involved in their engine project? Probably none... its an Ilmor Engine really... Paid for by Mercedes...

I have been infallible for several minutes now, but I think that you got it wrong. I believe M-B has largely replaced Ilmor.

[donskar]

So your plan is this, if I understand correctly: Cosworth makes a 2.4l V8 based on the 2006 design (I assume that's their plan anyway?), sends out the torque-curve, to be regulated via ECUs, and teams get to optimize their engines, like now - only except increases in torque and power, they'll optimize efficiency, gaining the same power for less fuel?

Sounds great, actually.

And how will that save money? Is it not likely that vast sums will be spent in an effort to "optimize efficiency"?

The goal of an F1 racing team (Ferrari and McLaren, for example, as opposed to marketing creations such as Red Bull and FIF1) is to win races no matter what it takes. If optimizing efficiency is the way to win, then the serious teams will do whatever it takes, whatever it costs to win. Exotic lubricants, super-secret gasoline compounds, ultra-sophisticated wheel bearing -- it is making my brain hurt.

That is ONLY IMVHO. Please consider and respond to this: how do BMW, Renault, Toyota and Mercedes recoup their massive investments by advertising their winning a race powered by a Cosworth engine?

[WhiteBlue]

So your plan is this, if I understand correctly: Cosworth makes a 2.4l V8 based on the 2006 design (I assume that's their plan anyway?), sends out the torque-curve, to be regulated via ECUs, and teams get to optimize their engines, like now - only except increases in torque and power, they'll optimize efficiency, gaining the same power for less fuel?

Sounds great, actually.

And how will that save money? Is it not likely that vast sums will be spent in an effort to "optimize efficiency"?

The goal of an F1 racing team (Ferrari and McLaren, for example, as opposed to marketing creations such as Red Bull and FIF1) is to win races no matter what it takes. If optimizing efficiency is the way to win, then the serious teams will do whatever it takes, whatever it costs to win. Exotic lubricants, super-secret gasoline compounds, ultra-sophisticated wheel bearing -- it is making my brain hurt.

That is ONLY IMVHO. Please consider and respond to this: how do BMW, Renault, Toyota and Mercedes recoup their massive investments by advertising their winning a race powered by a Cosworth engine?

Well perhaps Mercedes will do their share holders a favour and burn a bit less of their cash. Perhaps "competition" in F1 will then become a bit less of a lopsided contest and more of a sport. Currently it has as much to do with sport as the American legal system with justice. Those who have the deepest pockets over the longest period of time will win.

Why should the winner actually have a Cosworth engine? Merc, BMW, Toyota, Reault and Ferrari are all given an option to keep their own engines. All they are asked to do is running them on the same power level as their less affluent competitiors do. It is very easy to create a marketing message from winning an efficiency contest. Our cars will give you the lowest bill at the pump. Show me the consumer who will not love this message. If you can buy a superior car that beats others in safety, comfort, style, brand image and offers lowest cost of running, who can resist it?

[riff_raff]

Good to see Cosworth back in F1. They supplied half the grid in F1 at one time.

[xpensive]

I think it is apparent by now that Max's plan is not some scare-tactic anymore, it is the way it's going to be and the manufacturer's can take it or leave it.

As for the engine design, short term there's little doubt that 2010 will bring de-tuned 2.4 l atmospheric V8s, but for the future I'm not so sure anymore.
Chaparral's info on Kalkhoven's activities in the US, collecting 96 fairly recently designed (by Cosworth) 2.6 l methanol fueled turbo V8s, is if it's true obviously more than a coincidence.

Makes me wonder a bit, can't be that much difference in size or power between the two V8s and just how "green" is methanol? Anybody knows how the stuff is produced?

Remember that Kalkhoven and Cosworth were turned down by Red Bull two years ago, as Dieter Matechitz wanted Renaults? How things can change.

[WhiteBlue]

Those 2.6 L V8 engines do not qualify to the spec of the current F1 engine and the spec of the tender. I see no way they can be used in F1. BMW, Merc, Ferrari and Toyota will always insist on having their own engine design and assembly. The FiA is accomodating this requirement. So there is no conceivable way that would see the current formula being changed for another naturally aspired V8. If they go away from present spec it will be towards a charged engine with fewer cylinders, less capacity higher milage and lower manufacturing cost . Efficiency leaves no alternative to that path.

[xpensive]

Sometimes I wonder if it would be possible to use expressions like "I believe" or "I doubt" in here, than just categorically shoot down every different idea than your own? Just once?

[WhiteBlue]

Sometimes I wonder if it would be possible to use expressions like "I believe" or "I doubt" in here, than just categorically shoot down every different idea than your own? Just once?

Please see my disclaimer in the sig. Also please note that much of my statement is related to published facts and policies. I will substantiate it for you if you want. The last two sentences are conclusion to the above and are pure opinion. Other observers will see it different. Discussing those conclusions should be fun and I'm ready to defend my view.