F1 pistons and their makers

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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safeaschuck
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Ah Belatti, My apologies for over looking FM/Goetze, they do not seem to come up very often amongst the pitson makes over here but I am sure they are every bit as good as Mahle (even though I can actually hear Germans scoffing from here :D). I worked in a small piston manufacturing outfit for a while and it always seemed to be Mahle Samples we were receiving when translating a road car piston into something more racy.
Perhaps it is just down to logistics, for instance the same V.A.G. engine that uses Mahle's over here may use FM over there. I know they vary the spec of the engine's across the Atlantic to take into account different fuel quality and emissions laws, it would make sense to have locally made pistons for local spec cars.

No doubt FM would have a good knowledge of Diesel pistons too, I'd love to get your thoughts on the way forward for these in motorsport...

It's sad but I think your right about American ownership holding back companies from supplying F1, I know there are exceptions, I think AP are one, but there is defiantly extra unspoken complications for American companies.

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Mahle pistons

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The FIAT plant in Cordoba, Argentina, began its production of the 1.6L 16v NA engine in Januyary 2008. I worked for FM till may 2007. We had to develop the manufacturing process (APQP and PPAP - very thorny issues if you will) and for that we used the blueprints we got from Italy and some Mahle and FM-Italy samples, as they where our competitors in the race to supply FIAT. Finally and after testing 13 engines that used our piston samples, we won the auction for a simple reason: cost. Mahle manufactured their pistons in Brazil and at that time they had higher costs. Mahle Argentina only manufactured piston rings, so the Argentinian FIAT 1.6L Engine basically has FM pistons and Mahle rings :D

The manufacturing process is someway complicated, depending on the piston design. For that FIAT piston I mentioned we had to develop a machine capable of make a plastic deformation on the aluminum in the pin hole, head side. That deformation had to have the shape of a parabol and 0.007mm of maximum deformation. Now, I wont tell you how we did measure that :D but the machine worked. The calculus of the devices and parameters involved in the process where the subject of my Mech Eng degree final project.

For the ones who do not have an idea of how complicated would be for a team to machine such incredible and complicated parts, here is a part of a blueprint as example:

Image
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Belatti,

You are correct when you state that piston manufacturing requires some very specialized techniques and equipment. It is usually not cost effective, even for F1 engine suppliers, to purchase this equipment. Besides, F1 piston technology is already very mature, and Mahle can easily produce as good a piston as any engine supplier could do on their own.

That's a nice drawing you linked. But it does not show the most critical information about a piston design, which are the skirt cam, taper and barrel profiling.

There are lots of suppliers for F1 engine parts, such as Pankl for rods, Del West for valves, Champion for spark plugs, Bosch for ECU's, etc.

http://www.pankl.com/Racing.384.0.html
http://www.delwestusa.com/manufactured/

Regards,
Terry

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marcush.
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Re: Mahle pistons

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wasn`t a large bit of Vickers /Cosworth not sold out to Audi and then sold on and reorganised to be Mahle Systems a few years ago?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Mahle is great piston manufacturer, they are the OEM BMW piston supplier. So i think it is easier to just make them supply them.
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Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Mahle pistons

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riff_raff wrote:
That's a nice drawing you linked. But it does not show the most critical information about a piston design, which are the skirt cam, taper and barrel profiling.

Image


Terry, although I do not work for FM anymore, still I keep my promise not to make public that info. I have erased the name of the piston, the code, the manufacturer (sic) and details you mention.

Yes, those are the more important data because they describe,in a way, how does the piston expand with temperature.

BTW, nice pic :P
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mahle pistons

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That drawing looks very complicated..

So for designing a piston.. what do you start with first? the major dimensions?

How does the actual diameters (like the pin hole, and overall) compare to the nominal bore when you take into account all the factors you mentioned?

What determines the shape of the skirt?
How do you figure out the rings?

Which parts is the temperature change more critical to?

thanks
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Mahle pistons

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n smikle,

The number one consideration for a high-rpm, N/A racing engine piston is always weight. F1 pistons are forged and 100% machined on all surfaces. The 100% machining is done to remove the imperfections present in the as-forged surface material, and to maintain very accurate control over every surface feature and section thickness.

As for establishing the basic dimensions of the piston, F1 rules dictate a 2.4L V8 engine with a maximum bore diameter of 98mm and a circular bore shape. So it is very likely that all current F1 engines have a 98mm bore.

In order to minimize friction losses, F1 engines also use only a single compression ring. This allows a very short piston deck height. And in order to minimize rod length (and weight), the slipper type skirts are kept very short, in order to clear the crank throws at BDC.

Establishing the actual profile of the piston skirt thrust surfaces and piston ring faces at operating temperatures is where things get tricky. Since the cylinder bore is round and cylindrical, you want a piston skirt and ring face profile that will match the bore perfectly at operating temperatures. However, the piston is machined at room temperature, and the shape it assumes at operating temperature is very different from the room temperature shape. The piston is heated unevenly during operation and has section thicknesses that vary, so it does not expand uniformly. In order to have a piston shape that fits the bore accurately at operating temps, it must be machined at room temps to a distorted shape. These machined piston skirt contours are referred to as "taper" (variation in diameter top-to-bottom), "barrel" (radial bulging at the center of the skirt length), and "cam" (elliptical profiling of the piston OD in plan view).

Manufacturing rings also presents similar issues. The ring must be round when compressed in the bore. But it is also manufactured in the free-state. Racing rings are wound around a specially shaped mandrel from rectangular cross-section wire. The shape of the winding mandrel is calculated to produce a ring shape that is round when compressed. The face of the rings is also ground to produce a "barrel" profile, so that the face will always have a uniform contact with the bore surface, even when twisted slightly.

Here's a quick reference:
http://www.riken.co.jp/e/piston/c/c_1.html

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Wow.. =D>

Thanks.. very impressive the level of thought that is put in.
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xpensive
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Re: Mahle pistons

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I'm not so sure. From what I've heard, USGPE is planning to run their engines at temperatures never seen before, thus xpanding the bore to as much as 98.6 mm?
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Belatti
Belatti
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Re: Mahle pistons

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xpensive wrote:I'm not so sure. From what I've heard, USGPE is planning to run their engines at temperatures never seen before, thus xpanding the bore to as much as 98.6 mm?
Rules states 98mm. Is USGPE going to build its own engines, I dont think so. Starting from scratch agaist the well developed actual F1 engines would be expensive and it would take a long time.

What I am thinking now is since rules say 18.000rpm max, that maybe going below the 98mm bore can make sense.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Jersey Tom
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Re: Mahle pistons

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xpensive wrote:I'm not so sure. From what I've heard, USGPE is planning to run their engines at temperatures never seen before, thus xpanding the bore to as much as 98.6 mm?
Where do you hear this?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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safeaschuck
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Re: Mahle pistons

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n smikle wrote:What determines the shape of the skirt?
How do you figure out the rings?

Which parts is the temperature change more critical to?
I will try and fill in the bits I remember...

Skirt:

I'm sorry I don't have figures but certainly the temaperature change is not the only determining factor in designing the barrel shape ( ) of the skirt. The piston goes through a rolling motion as a result of the pressure applied to the thrust face on the power stroke, and anti-thrust face on the compression stroke. The barrel will help reduce wear as the very edge of the crown is pushed into the cylinder wall, but it must keep the piston as close as possble to vertical to help the maintain the ring seal.

There have been over the years, invented many ways of modifying the surface of the barrel and ring land diameters to achaive better sealing and reduced friction, some of these work. One of the most widely used is the sawtooth finish on the skirt.
- A tapered cutting tool is used on the eliptical lathe
/ to cut this pattern in the skirt, it reduces contact
- area and helps drag oil up the cylinder walls towards
/ T.D.C. where it benefits the rings most.
-
/
Also a sprayed coating is quite often used on racing pistons, this is often purported to imporove the break in time, i.e. the time it takes for the piston to 'bed' into the perfect shape and finish for it's particular bore, but different engine builders have different views on it's actual worth.

One of the other notable features to have gained widespread acceptance as a good idea is a series of square nothches cut (turned) above the top ring, developed, I believe by Cosworth originaly they are actually designed ever so slightly larger than ideal so that the top's of the nothches will actuall interfere with the bore and the resultant, very slight micro welding/gaulling will, in effect self seal any microscopic imperfections in the shape/surf. finish at this critical area. The releif in the notches allows flowing material to collect there and prevent seizure.

Rings:

As with the rest of the Piston, something of a black art. There are sumulation programs available to help with this but only a handfull of companies will have them, Mahle and FM for instance, I beleive Ricardo have an off the shelf program to simulate the piston assembly to this level.
The rings are mostly specified by the ring manufacturers, with varying degrees of sucsess. FM/Goetze Germany were very good at this in my experience, some of the North American firms not so much. The amount of extra power that can be released by carefully chosen rings is almost unbeleivable. Taking off the shelf rings from two companies, changing from one top-spec ring pack to another can add as much as 1500rpm to an already very highly revving race motor.
The need to reduce friction must be balanced against the need to mantain a seal, one of the more inventive ways round this is using a more softly sprung ring and using the combustion pressure to force the ring against the cylinder wall with greater pressure on the power stroke only, therby encountering less friction on the other 3 strokes. This is acheived by machining the uppermost face of the top ring groove to allow gas to pas behind the ring, the depth of ring grooves must be carefully considred to keep the volume of the gas here as low as possible. In more extreme cases, i.e. drag racing, gas ports are drilled throgh the crown of the piston feeding in directly behind the ring, a very softly sprung ring can be used but oil loss is high, no problem on a quarter mile race...
The rigidity of the piston is also crucial to aid ring sealing, with the best rings in the world you will not seal a piston that twists/de-forms under load (although they all do to some extent obviously).

Temp change:

The piston always grows more in the direction of the gudgeon pin because the pin boss area is the most material rich area of the undercrown. More metal in a more rigid arrangement, more growth.
Racing pistons with slipper skirts have very little else in the way of solid, blocky areas of metal, the skirts are braced by thin butresses which terminate at the pin boss and have an element of flexibilty meaning the oval turned shape of the piston is at its largest in this area (at room temperature).
In actual fact slipper pistons, due to having no skirt on the sides only have a very small area where the diameter is really smaller, but this is critical.
Think of looking at the top of a 4 valve piston with the valve cutouts vertical, almost like so...

Image

Well, the piston grows more top to bottom than side to side threfore will be smaller in that direction at room temp.

You will also see what looks like a small additional ring groove below the 2nd comp. ring. This is usually a V shaped groove to help allow expansion and therefore de-compression of any gasses which may have escaped past the ring and further help prevent presurisation of the crankcase.

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Some engine internals pictures here, including pistons.

Check the Manchild pics and the riff_raff link :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&hilit=engine+i ... s&start=15
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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safeaschuck
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Re: Mahle pistons

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Belatti wrote:Some engine internals pictures here, including pistons.

Check the Manchild pics and the riff_raff link :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&hilit=engine+i ... s&start=15
Yes, these are much better, my pic was just standard road car upgrade piston. Same principles as used on most racing pistons up to LMP but at Tier 1/F1 then the height of the piston reduces dramatically for weight and packaging and some features dissapear, most notably 2nd comp ring (and the price goes up a lot).

Mind you many series outside of F1 have at least some road car DNA in their engine design.

That these F1 engines are running 3 races whilst sealed is quite amazing, as you can see from the pics Bellati shows they were not built to last in the traditional sense! Interesting that the freeze was bought in and revs bought down after, if the engines had been capped earlier and never been allowed to get to 21krpm etc. we might never have seen this level of detail in design and when the freeze period expires and next gen engines are built you will see teams concentrating more on service life when taking into account the durability vs performance of the part.
A watershed moment, certainly until turbo's return.