Is ABS advantage in race?

[speedsense]

There's a company in Sweden that makes a high performance upgrade to BMW, Audi, and Porche ABS systems. They test their system on ice to pass their tests on quality and sell the software upgrade to racing teams. However the pulse rate is always the limiting factor. Put it on an older Honda or Toyota (4 years old) and it doesn't do anything mainly do to pulse rate.
There's no doubt that electronics whether ABS, electronic ride controls, TC, alternate wheel braking systems, active suspension (with automatic steering correction), automatic shift, diff. slip controls, ECU ignition, fuel, throttle velocity control (throttle by wire), automatic "start clutching" systems, etc. would have changed F1 forever and made it something beyond "the drivers talent".

Thank you FIA, for not forcasting that kind of future in F1. ABS doesn't belong in racing or any other electronic driver control...it belongs on the street, where the insurance companies can realize a profit from it and the family can realize the safety of it. Racing should always be about driver talent....

[Edis]

There's a company in Sweden that makes a high performance upgrade to BMW, Audi, and Porche ABS systems. They test their system on ice to pass their tests on quality and sell the software upgrade to racing teams. However the pulse rate is always the limiting factor. Put it on an older Honda or Toyota (4 years old) and it doesn't do anything mainly do to pulse rate.
There's no doubt that electronics whether ABS, electronic ride controls, TC, alternate wheel braking systems, active suspension (with automatic steering correction), automatic shift, diff. slip controls, ECU ignition, fuel, throttle velocity control (throttle by wire), automatic "start clutching" systems, etc. would have changed F1 forever and made it something beyond "the drivers talent".

Thank you FIA, for not forcasting that kind of future in F1. ABS doesn't belong in racing or any other electronic driver control...it belongs on the street, where the insurance companies can realize a profit from it and the family can realize the safety of it. Racing should always be about driver talent....

Racing should always be about driver talent, what a load of....

Car racing will always be about man and machine.

[ChrisTipper]

It depends if the car is stable, yes it helps brake late as possible, but when Prost drove with it he said it made the car still unstable and unprediable underbraking in the wet.

[speedsense]

There's a company in Sweden that makes a high performance upgrade to BMW, Audi, and Porche ABS systems. They test their system on ice to pass their tests on quality and sell the software upgrade to racing teams. However the pulse rate is always the limiting factor. Put it on an older Honda or Toyota (4 years old) and it doesn't do anything mainly do to pulse rate.
There's no doubt that electronics whether ABS, electronic ride controls, TC, alternate wheel braking systems, active suspension (with automatic steering correction), automatic shift, diff. slip controls, ECU ignition, fuel, throttle velocity control (throttle by wire), automatic "start clutching" systems, etc. would have changed F1 forever and made it something beyond "the drivers talent".

Thank you FIA, for not forcasting that kind of future in F1. ABS doesn't belong in racing or any other electronic driver control...it belongs on the street, where the insurance companies can realize a profit from it and the family can realize the safety of it. Racing should always be about driver talent....

Racing should always be about driver talent, what a load of....

Car racing will always be about man and machine.

Exactly, it shouldn't be electronics, a bunch of sensors, a few controllers/computers, a passenger and a machine. If F1 had continued the active era, where would we be today? Mansell had some really bad feelings, and hesitations about a car that could correct oversteer with the exact amount of steering correction. He actually refused Williams to put this into play on the car after testing it.
At what point does racing become like commercial airlines, where the pilot is only needed to be there if something fails, otherwise the plane can take off, fly to it's destination, land without intervention from a pilot. Why would anyone want racing to be like this?

With ABS, my dog could stop a car as well as me. That's talent to you? IMHO, that's all machine, and not racing...

[Edis]

There's a company in Sweden that makes a high performance upgrade to BMW, Audi, and Porche ABS systems. They test their system on ice to pass their tests on quality and sell the software upgrade to racing teams. However the pulse rate is always the limiting factor. Put it on an older Honda or Toyota (4 years old) and it doesn't do anything mainly do to pulse rate.
There's no doubt that electronics whether ABS, electronic ride controls, TC, alternate wheel braking systems, active suspension (with automatic steering correction), automatic shift, diff. slip controls, ECU ignition, fuel, throttle velocity control (throttle by wire), automatic "start clutching" systems, etc. would have changed F1 forever and made it something beyond "the drivers talent".

Thank you FIA, for not forcasting that kind of future in F1. ABS doesn't belong in racing or any other electronic driver control...it belongs on the street, where the insurance companies can realize a profit from it and the family can realize the safety of it. Racing should always be about driver talent....

Racing should always be about driver talent, what a load of....

Car racing will always be about man and machine.

Exactly, it shouldn't be electronics, a bunch of sensors, a few controllers/computers, a passenger and a machine. If F1 had continued the active era, where would we be today? Mansell had some really bad feelings, and hesitations about a car that could correct oversteer with the exact amount of steering correction. He actually refused Williams to put this into play on the car after testing it.
At what point does racing become like commercial airlines, where the pilot is only needed to be there if something fails, otherwise the plane can take off, fly to it's destination, land without intervention from a pilot. Why would anyone want racing to be like this?

With ABS, my dog could stop a car as well as me. That's talent to you? IMHO, that's all machine, and not racing...

It's the fastest and car driver combination that wins. If the car is purely mechanical or uses mechanical and electronic systems to be as fast as possible doesn't matter.

And good luck with having your dog stopping you car. When you have suceeded with that, perhaps you should go on with teaching him how the paddle shifters work.

[raymondu999]

And good luck with having your dog stopping you car.

Tried that. Didn't work very well. Just my insurance breathing down my neck ever since

[Patrickl]

There was an Alpha Romeo 55 race cup a while ago that raced with ABS. A driver got it sideways just after eau rouge. The ABS kicked in and the car got grip and slammed the car straight into the guardrail. Pretty big accident.

Without ABS the driver would have just kept the wheels locked and slid down Kemmel.

[speedsense]

It's the fastest and car driver combination that wins. If the car is purely mechanical or uses mechanical and electronic systems to be as fast as possible doesn't matter.

True sometimes and sometimes not. I've seen many a race won with cars that were mechanically hurt. Seen cars that qualified on the pole after hitting a wall and knocking the alignment/camber off optimum. It is only the talent of the driver and his adaptation of the situation that made those happen. It isn't always the "combination" that wins. You can engineer the fastest car in the world, but the driver is the final puzzle piece that will make it or break it.
There's a lot to be said about a comfortable car to drive that is fast, versus a highly engineered and perfect car that makes a driver uncomfortable and lacks driver confidence... If the driver isn't confident in the car it doesn't matter how great the engineering is.

And good luck with having your dog stopping you car. When you have suceeded with that, perhaps you should go on with teaching him how the paddle shifters work.

Seeing how he's a border collie/brittney mix, he's smart enough to figure that one out on his own, I'd only have to show him once...a true racing dog he is though, doesn't even blink an eye when a GT-1 V-8 fires up...

[Pandamasque]

Here's a practical example.
Two back to back races in May 2010: 1000km or Spa and 24h of Nurburgring. LMS and ALMS GT2 rules don't allow ABS, while the ADAC regulations for N24 do allow ABS. Hankook Farnbacher Racing entered both races with the same car (Ferrari F430 GTC). Even though they had only a week to prepare for the 24 hour race at Nordschleife, and the fact they don't use ABS for their regular races, Farnbacher team still opted to install ABS. By the way, they finished 2rd overall behind the works BMW team and first in their class.

Is it more efficient that way? I'm sure it is. But racing is more fun for the drivers and fans without ABS.

There was an Alpha Romeo 55 race cup a while ago that raced with ABS. A driver got it sideways just after eau rouge. The ABS kicked in and the car got grip and slammed the car straight into the guardrail. Pretty big accident.

Without ABS the driver would have just kept the wheels locked and slid down Kemmel.

Also it's better not to use seatbelts, as one can be trapped inside the car and burn to death.

[Caito]

I've read many times that ABS is bad for snow, in snow you want the wheel to lock and penetrate through the snow to find grip in the tarmac or whatever.

Is anything of this true?

[747heavy]

I've read many times that ABS is bad for snow, in snow you want the wheel to lock and penetrate through the snow to find grip in the tarmac or whatever.

Is anything of this true?

Yes and No Caito

ABS is not the best for loose surfaces, in tems of shortest braking distance, this is true for snow, gravel, sand etc.

What happens under these conditions is, that the loose material compacts in front of the locked wheel and is forming a wedge/ramp, like you use in the garage to stop your car rolling away.
This build up of material in front of the tire, slows the car down a lot.

It has not much to do, with breaking through the snow cover and finding tarmac underneath.
This may happens once in a while and helps, but is not the primary effect.

Anyhow, under this conditions (locked wheels) you can´t steer the car, so ABS still has some advantages, but did not achieve the shortest possible braking distance under these conditions (loose surfaces).

Early Audi´s had a switch to deactivate the ABS in these conditions, not sure if this is still the case, today.

[ubrben]

Here's a practical example.
Two back to back races in May 2010: 1000km or Spa and 24h of Nurburgring. LMS and ALMS GT2 rules don't allow ABS, while the ADAC regulations for N24 do allow ABS. Hankook Farnbacher Racing entered both races with the same car (Ferrari F430 GTC). Even though they had only a week to prepare for the 24 hour race at Nordschleife, and the fact they don't use ABS for their regular races, Farnbacher team still opted to install ABS. By the way, they finished 2rd overall behind the works BMW team and first in their class.

Not sure what your point is. The BMW also raced at Spa 1000km and N24 and used ABS for the N24 only.

Ben