Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[SeijaKessen]

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Seija, are you just a second account that X uses? I'm not asking rhetorically.

Perhaps she is...ooops! While I take it you are JET's ambassador when he's in xile, right Coc?

But really, "Mercedes" contribution to Ilmor was never anything but money, and shitloads of it, allowing them to xpand into crazy developments like those beryllium-pistons and perverse three-lap quali-xhausts at 100k a pop, leading to an arms-race that not even Montezuma could match. Daimler single-handedly brought us these spec-engines with different valve-covers.

You've blown my cover! I was hoping to make everyone think I was a male.

What you say though is really my point. Merc's entire F1 venture from engine supplier to race team has all been done through British proxies. I really feel this is all ridiculous, because I would actually love to see a legitimate Merc venture into F1 to see how they do; everything based out of Germany, not England. I do not know if the results would be any different, but it's certainly better than fielding the BAR team in silver paint. Ferrari learned that a Ferrari built in England is not a Ferrari. Is it really that difficult for Merc to figure out the same thing?

It's a shame the McLaren-Peugeot partnership of 1994 didn't last beyond that season. I have a feeling had more development been done with those engines, McLaren might have fared better long-term. A lot of people think the McLaren-Mercedes partnership has been successful, but really, while being amongst the top teams with the Merc/Ilmor engines, their success is nowhere near what it was during the McLaren-TAG and McLaren-Honda days when they were the best team on the grid from the mid-80s to the early 90s. I think people are so enamored with the Merc name that they haven't looked at the situation whether it be engine supplier or race team in a rational manner.

[xpensive]

When you think about it hone...oops...McLaren actually scored 8 podiums with Peugeot in their first season, but Mercedes was rather convincing to Ron the con with, again, a shitload of money. I know for a fact that Corrado Provera was furious, but on the other hand, appointing Jean-Pierre Jabouille as interface with McLaren was perhaps not the best of ideas either?

[SeijaKessen]

MB makes the best engines?

Putting Mercedes covers on an Ilmor built engine does not make it a MB engine...much like painting a British F1 car silver does not make it a Mercedes car.

Nor does winning 2 constructors championships since 1995 qualify them as the best engine Manufacturer.

Over the same period of time, Renault-powered F1 cars have won 7.

Ferrari engines have won 8.

I think our opinions on what constitutes best engines differs just slightly.

The consolation is that Ilmor/MB engines are indeed better than Cosworth engines over the same time period.

Well...

a)Ilmor could never enter F1 alone for any length of time.
b) required Stuttgart resources(engineers along with money)
c)Effectively became a Mercedes run operation from 1995 onwards with Mercedes calling the shots.
d) wholly owned Mercedes ops in 2005-

So this begs the question, Seija, what threshold does a team have to cross before they match their livery, hm? Is Red Bull still Stewart then? What does Ilmor have to do for you to consider it an actual Mercedes engine factory? Or is the answer simply, "Nothing, it'll always be Ilmor, because that gives me the same thing to fall back on whenever I run out of things to complain about Mercedes-Benz." Seija, wouldn't it be healthier to just talk about things you actually like?

I wish the mods would wise up that you guys are using Merc-AMG to proxy-troll JET and the other fans. It's a pretty cool system; I have to give you credit. You go over-the-top, slamming the team with lots of smirking to get JET and the other fans riled up. Then when JET and the other fans take your bait, the mods delete their posts (for causing drama) while leaving your trolling intact. I'm sure on your end, it's hilarious.

Cocles,

I've been trying to understand the entire Mercedes situation for awhile which is why I post a lot about it. It has nothing to do with trolling or whatever else you would like to call it. I don't particularly care for the disinformation being spread by Brawn, Norbert, you, or our dearly departed JET.

Fact is regarding Ilmor, the only thing Merc/Daimler did was inject copious amounts of cash into the company as mentioned by xpensive. Until I see AMG setup shop in Germany and design/build their own engines, as well as their F1 team, I have a hard time taking it seriously as a true Merc team. Everything is British with different engine covers and paint jobs.

You miss my point in that I would love to see a legitimate Merc entry into F1. They have been half-assing it for quite some time, and their results reflect the exact amount of effort put into the team.

[xpensive]

With the in-house designed Group C effort of the early 90s still in memory, I'm afraid it will be a while before Stuttgart enters that avenue again, don't you think?

[SeijaKessen]

When you think about it hone...oops...McLaren actually scored 8 podiums with Peugeot in their first season, but Mercedes was rather convincing to Ron the con with, again, a shitload of money. I know for a fact that Corrado Provera was furious, but on the other hand, appointing Jean-Pierre Jabouille as interface with McLaren was perhaps not the best of ideas either?

JP Jabouille definitely was not the best of ideas. Too bad they didn't sack him in mid-1994 as opposed to 1995 because perhaps Ron might have thought otherwise. But then again, he probably would have taken the Merc money and their engines simply because globs of money make a bigger difference. Just as a side note, I've always found it interesting how people cry about Ayrton Senna supposedly taking Ron the Con "to the cleaners" in 1993 with the $1 million per race payment, yet no one cried when Ron decides to take his own copious amounts of money. Here's an interesting thought though for you xpensive...when Honda pulled out after the '92 season, Ron tried to get the Renault engines in the McLaren before settling on the last generation Ford engines since he had no other options. Had he been succesful, and Renault been able to supply the RS5 engines to McLaren, Merc probably never gets into F1 with McLaren.

I do hear Nigel S is writing a tell-all book. I'm certain Ron breaks out in a cold sweat at night thinking about it.

But, this is inherently the problem with Mercedes in F1.

They throw money at everything thinking that will bring success.

Why not take that money and invest it on their end into producing everything they are apparently too lazy to do on their own? Yes it will take longer, but it would at least cause them to reassess how they run their organization since they would have to build from scratch.

[SeijaKessen]

With the in-house designed Group C effort of the early 90s still in memory, I'm afraid it will be a while before Stuttgart enters that avenue again, don't you think?

I agree.

Merc seems to plan their future in motorsports based around how long memories --positive or negative-- linger about.

[xpensive]

Remember that Ron the Con managed to screw Chrysler/Lamborghini as well during this time, they had paid for an adapted MP4/8 to be built and tested in late 1993, proved much faster than the Ford-powered one, only to settle for Peugeot after all?

Only one year later, he changes his mind again, now blaming Peugeot for everything and settles for Daimler and West money.

[SeijaKessen]

Remember that Ron the Con managed to screw Chrysler/Lamborghini as well during this time, they had paid for an adapted MP4/8 to be built and tested in late 1993, proved much faster than the Ford-powered one, only to settle for Peugeot after all?

Only one year later, he changes his mind again, now blaming Peugeot for everything and settles for Daimler and West money.

Ayrton Senna loved the MP4/8 with the Lamborghini V12 and asked Ron the Con multiple times if he could use it later in the '93 season...yet in spite of it being at least 1 second faster than the Ford V8 he kept saying no.

Just imagine, Senna would still be here were it not for Ron the Con's BS.

Of course the entire joke is that Merc and Chrysler wound up merging a few years later.

[xpensive]

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Of course the entire joke is that Merc and Chrysler wound up merging a few years later.

Perhaps someone knew, or at least thought they did?

Anyway, back on topic, what Daimler should have done was to send someone else than an obese journo to integrate the entire McLaren shabang with Ilmor and a long-term plan to form a serious Mercedes Grand Prix effort, that's all here's to it really.

Right JET?

[SeijaKessen]

...
Of course the entire joke is that Merc and Chrysler wound up merging a few years later.

Perhaps someone knew, or at least thought they did?

Anyway, back on topic, what Daimler should have done was to send someone else than an obese journo to integrate the entire McLaren shabang with Ilmor and a long-term plan to form a serious Mercedes Grand Prix effort, that's all here's to it really.

Right JET?

I concur.

While it is a lot more difficult now --due to wasted time and incompetent personnel-- the Daimler board if interested in having some success, should seriously consider moving operations entirely to Germany. It may not be the answer to everything, but MGP would in my opinion, fare far better than they are now.

[wunderkind]

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Of course the entire joke is that Merc and Chrysler wound up merging a few years later.

Perhaps someone knew, or at least thought they did?

Anyway, back on topic, what Daimler should have done was to send someone else than an obese journo to integrate the entire McLaren shabang with Ilmor and a long-term plan to form a serious Mercedes Grand Prix effort, that's all here's to it really.

Right JET?

Wrong! Mercedes could not have integrated ilmor into McLaren because it made no economic and financial sense. Why pump valuable assets into a company (McLaren) you have no control over? Furthermore, Mercedes did not have full ownership of ilmor until it bought out the late Paul Morgan's stake from his estate and then Mario Ilien's and lastly, the stake held by Roger Penske in the mid 2000's. Also, ilmor was not what it was after Morgan's death. Mario Ilien just couldn't carry on. Mercedes brought in the ex-BMW Werner Laurenz and Markus Duesmann to bolster the team but things didn't work out and they were promptly dismissed.

Ron opted for the Peugeot engines because the Peugeot engines were supplied to the team essentially free of charge and Peugeot promised McLaren a aggressive development program. The Ford V8 cost money to develop and McLaren was contractually barred from works support from Ford by Benetton. There was no reason not to trust Peugeot after their successful campaigns in the prototype championship and le Mans wins. You guys must have forgotten the Lamborghini V12 was a fragile engine that was unreliable and prone to self destruct. The engineers were probably surprised the engine didn't blow up during Senna's test.

[xpensive]

Why I guess that Ron [...] just went along with Peugeot and Chrysler because he was both gulleable and good-hearted?

[wunderkind]

...
Of course the entire joke is that Merc and Chrysler wound up merging a few years later.

Perhaps someone knew, or at least thought they did?

Anyway, back on topic, what Daimler should have done was to send someone else than an obese journo to integrate the entire McLaren shabang with Ilmor and a long-term plan to form a serious Mercedes Grand Prix effort, that's all here's to it really.

Right JET?

I concur.

While it is a lot more difficult now --due to wasted time and incompetent personnel-- the Daimler board if interested in having some success, should seriously consider moving operations entirely to Germany. It may not be the answer to everything, but MGP would in my opinion, fare far better than they are now.

Your idea of Mercedes moving all it's F1 operations back to Germany is a fanciful one that has been dismissed time and time again. It's a romantic notion, but that's it.

Firstly, the pool of top notch F1 design and engineering expertise and experience in Germany is small. That means Mercedes will have to either start from scratch or hiring expats from all over Europe to live and work in Germany at great expense. Also, taxes are lower in the UK. The German language is also an issue. Like it or not, being in Germany means german will be the default language. But the F1 rules are written in English and having designers and engineers with English as their first language is an advantage.

Secondly, there is a small but very competent band of external parts and technology suppliers in the UK that do not exist in Germany. That means Mercedes will have to do even more things in-house to replicate the services provided by these external suppliers.

Thirdly, it is only economical to make things in Germany if you are taking about huge volumes. For anything bespoke or low volume, the UK is the place to do it.

[wunderkind]

Why I guess that Ron the Con just went along with Peugeot and Chrysler because he was both gulleable and good-hearted?

Just think rationally and look at the engine supplier landscape that year and most would probably have reached the same conclusion as Ron did.

Ron could not afford to stick with Peugeot because he was desperate for wins and the Peugeot engine seemed unable to deliver. Of course, the McLaren cars were also to blame. Mercedes was definitely the preferred engine supplier given it's resources, prestige, and will to win.

[xpensive]

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Thirdly, it is only economical to make things in Germany if you are taking about huge volumes. For anything bespoke or low volume, the UK is the place to do it.

Quite obviously, opportunities to get things made swift and certain in Italy is vastly overshadowing Germany in this respect?