2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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I think the question of how Mercedes got more competitive isn't really the issue of this thread. Soit is a bit annoying that we have to wade through this off topic garbage endlessly.

I find it more interesting to identify the impact of the Kevlar belted rears on the performance. The soft tyres still seem to degrade very quickly which is pretty much what we had before, but the mediums seem to last a lot longer at least on the Red Bulls. So effectively there seems to be a gap opening from that change.

Another question is whether the soft tyres degrade equally rapid when you have 80-100 kg fuel less on board. Is there a big change in the degradation. It potentially is if you look at the strange decision by Ferrari to qualify on Mediums.
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JimClarkFan
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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WhiteBlue wrote:I think the question of how Mercedes got more competitive isn't really the issue of this thread. Soit is a bit annoying that we have to wade through this off topic garbage endlessly.

I find it more interesting to identify the impact of the Kevlar belted rears on the performance. The soft tyres still seem to degrade very quickly which is pretty much what we had before, but the mediums seem to last a lot longer at least on the Red Bulls. So effectively there seems to be a gap opening from that change.

Another question is whether the soft tyres degrade equally rapid when you have 80-100 kg fuel less on board. Is there a big change in the degradation. It potentially is if you look at the strange decision by Ferrari to qualify on Mediums.
Possibly but we won't truly know until tomorrow.

If we are to believe the reports, the softs will go off anywhere from lap 5-8 in the race. The soft is believed to be 1 second faster per lap.

Lets say the front runners get 10 laps on the softs before they are ruined (+2 lap margin over predicted target for first pit stop), that is a 10 second gap to those on the medium tyres.

A pit stop is normally about 20 seconds (not sure what it is here?) so it seems to me that the medium is the tyre you want to be on at the start of the race, and the tyre you want to be on during the second stint.

Ending on the soft, provided you can make the mediums last till then, would be the fastest race?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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I would think the pit stops would loose you 25 seconds. The pit lane isn't very short. Ferrari said that they gamble on the soft runner to get mired in traffic. That is not very likely to be their true strategy. It is very unusual to speak about what is on your mind. So the speculation may be partly that they can get away with one pit stop, although it looks like a long stretch. I think that the Lotuses will stop much later than the Red Bulls and Hamilton. The three top runners will try to undercut each other or prevent the other to just do that. Kimi and Grosjean should be a lot less concerned about that. I would not be surprised to see them trying a 20 lap first stint on the options. So it would potentially take Alonso a long time until he can jump those guys and they fall into traffic as well. It could make life for him very difficult in the end if Kimi stops only once and he want to two stop. It makes a lot more sense if Ferrari have concluded that they are 0.6 s off the pace of the two stoppers and have to battle Kimi on a one stop strategy to get fourth or with attrition a podium. In that case the gamble would be that Lotus would have equal degradation on mediums but higher degradation on softs because they would run the softs with 90 kg more fuel. I could imagine that to be the core piece of their strategy.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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JimClarkFan wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:I think the question of how Mercedes got more competitive isn't really the issue of this thread. Soit is a bit annoying that we have to wade through this off topic garbage endlessly.

I find it more interesting to identify the impact of the Kevlar belted rears on the performance. The soft tyres still seem to degrade very quickly which is pretty much what we had before, but the mediums seem to last a lot longer at least on the Red Bulls. So effectively there seems to be a gap opening from that change.

Another question is whether the soft tyres degrade equally rapid when you have 80-100 kg fuel less on board. Is there a big change in the degradation. It potentially is if you look at the strange decision by Ferrari to qualify on Mediums.
Possibly but we won't truly know until tomorrow.

If we are to believe the reports, the softs will go off anywhere from lap 5-8 in the race. The soft is believed to be 1 second faster per lap.

Lets say the front runners get 10 laps on the softs before they are ruined (+2 lap margin over predicted target for first pit stop), that is a 10 second gap to those on the medium tyres.

A pit stop is normally about 20 seconds (not sure what it is here?) so it seems to me that the medium is the tyre you want to be on at the start of the race, and the tyre you want to be on during the second stint.

Ending on the soft, provided you can make the mediums last till then, would be the fastest race?
1 second a lap, but if Alonso and Massa are 6th & 7th after lap 1, there is no way they will be 1 second behind. After 3 laps they can easily be 7-10 seconds behind
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MOWOG
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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I think it is highly unlikely that ANY team will attempt a one stop race strategy. Except perhaps Marussia or Caterham. :? Asking the medium tires to last 40+ laps just seems unrealistic.

It seems to me, Ferrari is hoping to be near the front of the field and to slide into the lead after the front runners stop to get rid of the soft tires. It might work. It might not. We shall see, eh? :?
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Juzh
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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GrizzleBoy wrote:The best thing about Lewis' poles is that it never really looks like the car is on rails.
Which means he's making mistakes. So it's the car who saved his pole lap, not himself. Being able to make mistakes and still go fastest :wink:

piast9
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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And now for something completely different. Excuse me if that's stupid question but the last chicane looks strange to me. It looks like two chicanes in parallel with no white lines which would clearly determine which way should be used. Are drivers free to choose one or what?

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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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Juzh wrote:
GrizzleBoy wrote:The best thing about Lewis' poles is that it never really looks like the car is on rails.
Which means he's making mistakes. So it's the car who saved his pole lap, not himself. Being able to make mistakes and still go fastest :wink:
This means the car is not balanced, and need to holds the back often with the steering wheel... Nevermind you wouldn`t get it

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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piast9 wrote:And now for something completely different. Excuse me if that's stupid question but the last chicane looks strange to me. It looks like two chicanes in parallel with no white lines which would clearly determine which way should be used. Are drivers free to choose one or what?
No the chicane is for cars and bikes. The cars have to use the first chicane. The bikes use the second.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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MOWOG wrote:I think it is highly unlikely that ANY team will attempt a one stop race strategy. Except perhaps Marussia or Caterham. :? Asking the medium tires to last 40+ laps just seems unrealistic.
In FP2 Red Bull ran them for 28 laps and they were not degrading at all which prompted Marc Surer to call them LeMans tyres and speculate about exactly the question whether they would also last for 40+ laps. He was of the opinion they would.

We should not forget it is the rears that are dictating degradation and they have a different heat development. The will cool off much faster because the Kevlar does not hold the heat so well. I seem to remmber that Pirelli have added a bigger gap in durability to the medium and hard compounds while they left the soft and super soft very fragile. That could be amplified by Kevlar now and on top the fuel weight might also affect the degradation of the softs.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 07 Jul 2013, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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Juzh wrote:
GrizzleBoy wrote:The best thing about Lewis' poles is that it never really looks like the car is on rails.
Which means he's making mistakes. So it's the car who saved his pole lap, not himself. Being able to make mistakes and still go fastest :wink:
At what point in time, did having a car that isn't perfectly balanced mean that getting a fast lap time out of it automatically mean you're making mistakes?

What I meant is that its much more fun to watch a pole lap that visually looks like the driver is dragging the car to the top, rather than just following the car up there.

I'm sure you knew that already though ~_~

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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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Looking forward to tomorrow, I think hammy will get jumped off the line by the quick starting Vettel, webber will be in the mix as well, I'm guessing a Vet/web/rai podium. (I hope for championship it will be ham/web/rai and vet dnf)
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SiLo
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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Hamilton will be first into the first corner, did you see his start in Silverstone? When the tyres bit he launched off the line with that Mercedes mechanical grip.
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myurr
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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munudeges wrote:He doesn't have any because it didn't happen. Anyone who has had one of their eyes open in the past few weeks knows that it has been established Ferrari performed a test with a two year old car. A bit of an eye opener and raises questions, but it's been done before with Renault. Mercedes used their current cars, drivers and race team and had the opportunity to simulate exact current circumstances on a track where they performed abysmally during the race (two seconds a lap slower in fact). It's just an example of the brain damage that there is over this issue. "Oh, maybe in my own mind if I can imagine that Ferrari perhaps put some up to date parts on their car at their test then what Mercedes did is perfectly justified and OK". Not it wouldn't, in any case.

But I agree, this issue garbage and we simply shouldn't be discussing or attempting to debate a case of blatant cheating that makes the sport look even more ridiculous. Let's censor that. We should wait until this race is over even though we've had several weeks where it's been clear that Mercedes have made dramatic improvements post-Barcelona. It's not even as though it's about debating a part on the car of questionable legality that took time and effort to design and build. They managed to do a 1000 kilometre test with their current car, drivers and team where no other team could during a hard test ban. End of.
This'll be my last post on this as you've clearly got your fingers in your ears and are singing "la la la" very loudly.

Ferrari have been accused of running 2013 aero and suspension on a 2011 chassis in testing by your beloved Red Bull. Horner has asked the FIA for a clarification. We have not yet heard on this from any other party, looks like it's being dealt with on the hush hush. But Ferrari have not denied it happened despite the public accusation. They have yet another tyre test lined up for next week (or the week after) where Red Bull have again accused Ferrari of planning to run 2013 parts on a 2011 tub.

There's also the small matter that the FIA sanctioned Merc's test with Charlie Whiting even getting it signed off with the FIA's lawyer. It was Todt who changed the FIA's stance on this retroactively with the FIA's own tribunal stating unequivocally that Mercedes acted in good faith. But of course you know better than everyone else.

Then there's the little fact that you have no sodding idea how much of an effect that test had and that every proclamation you're making on the subject is blind assumption on your part based on pseudo evidence and wild extrapolation. You have no idea what work was in Merc's pipeline before that test, what work was carried out at the test, what data was collected, how their plans have evolved, if they even tested new parts, who controlled the setup (the test was run by Pirelli not Mercedes), if setup changes were even allowed / used, or what tyres were used. You also have no idea how much of their apparent improvement in performance has been down to setup, development, track conditions, weather, or even just driver confidence. You also have no idea yet what their pace is going to be like in tomorrows race.

But in the absence of all that evidence you've decided that Mercedes are blatant cheaters who gained a whole load of race day performance are only successful because of that one test and that anyone who disagrees with you is a blind fanboy. Pot meet kettle.

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Chuckjr
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Re: 2013 German GP - Nurburgring

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Exactly. Back on topic.

I see Ferrari going balls out like in Spain. Starting on the primes he has more ability to push for longer. I can completely see him going prime, prime, option and pushing like hell each stint. It would be great to see. They are far enough in front from quali today for them not to be caught in too much traffic despite qualifying on the primes. Plus, Fred's starts are usually stellar.

He just might pull it off.
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