Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
Vanja #66
1564
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 14:37
One of the allowed changes under parc fermé is pedal position (article 40 sporting regulations), albeit with permission from a technical delegate. Placing an access point where adjustments can be made in the pedal box would not draw any attention whatsoever.

Removal of panels could point toward the removal of the panel on top of the cockpit nose, which is typically the access panel for the pedal box. Therefore, I believe it is strategically placed and not a coincidence.

Ultimately, the effectiveness of it is beside the point when you are breaking the law to make changes. Obviously absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever, but if it were to have a noticeable effect I think that would show with a bigger discrepancy between their qualifying and race pace.
Placing an adjustment device around pedal box is also a lot handier for setup during FPs than having to get the car up on jacks every time. It's put there for a reason, if it really is there, which does not make it illegal. If they indeed used it, there'd a lot - and I mean A LOT - less trouble with balance and lack of downforce in race trim on their end.

This setup change between Q and R would allow the car to be setup and run lower than others at all times during Q and R. As the race goes on, cars go faster and faster, getting closer to the ground. Floor downforce coefficient increment gets bigger as the car gets closer to the ground. This would mean the lowest car would have a noticeable step in the final stint vs other cars and this is not a feature of RB20 and it never was. There is a car that often finds something extra in the final 3rd of the race though and that car comes from Woking.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
102
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:34
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 14:37
One of the allowed changes under parc fermé is pedal position (article 40 sporting regulations), albeit with permission from a technical delegate. Placing an access point where adjustments can be made in the pedal box would not draw any attention whatsoever.

Removal of panels could point toward the removal of the panel on top of the cockpit nose, which is typically the access panel for the pedal box. Therefore, I believe it is strategically placed and not a coincidence.

Ultimately, the effectiveness of it is beside the point when you are breaking the law to make changes. Obviously absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever, but if it were to have a noticeable effect I think that would show with a bigger discrepancy between their qualifying and race pace.
Placing an adjustment device around pedal box is also a lot handier for setup during FPs than having to get the car up on jacks every time. It's put there for a reason, if it really is there, which does not make it illegal. If they indeed used it, there'd a lot - and I mean A LOT - less trouble with balance and lack of downforce in race trim on their end.

This setup change between Q and R would allow the car to be setup and run lower than others at all times during Q and R. As the race goes on, cars go faster and faster, getting closer to the ground. Floor downforce coefficient increment gets bigger as the car gets closer to the ground. This would mean the lowest car would have a noticeable step in the final stint vs other cars and this is not a feature of RB20 and it never was. There is a car that often finds something extra in the final 3rd of the race though and that car comes from Woking.
A few sources, and iirc comes directly from an explanation made by a team representative, have said that the driver cannot be in the car when making adjustments. This, for me personally, dismantles the fact that it is used for changes during practice sessions. It seems incredibly backwards for that to be its purpose and not time efficient. Cars go onto jacks all the time, cars don't enter the garage without being put on a jack trolley first.

pantherxxx
pantherxxx
6
Joined: 05 Jun 2018, 15:04
Location: Hungary

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

More and more information is coming out about the solution:
“Mechanics must remove the nose cone, a separate panel, and a carbon section within the footwell in a process that requires multiple mechanics to perform quickly.”

It was originally made to look as if Red Bull could change the floor height with the push of a button, but that's not even close. And I don't see how they could do that under parc fermé without the FIA inspectors noticing it. Unless James Bond is working on the car.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1564
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:56
A few sources, and iirc comes directly from an explanation made by a team representative, have said that the driver cannot be in the car when making adjustments. This, for me personally, dismantles the fact that it is used for changes during practice sessions. It seems incredibly backwards for that to be its purpose and not time efficient. Cars go onto jacks all the time, cars don't enter the garage without being put on a jack trolley first.
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is. I genuinely don't see anything else in this story other than McLaren trying to make a far-fetched acusation after having their illegal wing effectively banned. I'm fully convinced there was a backwards step-change on RB20 in Miami with some kind of external intervention, but this whole story turned out to be a non-story for me
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
102
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:11
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:56
A few sources, and iirc comes directly from an explanation made by a team representative, have said that the driver cannot be in the car when making adjustments. This, for me personally, dismantles the fact that it is used for changes during practice sessions. It seems incredibly backwards for that to be its purpose and not time efficient. Cars go onto jacks all the time, cars don't enter the garage without being put on a jack trolley first.
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is. I genuinely don't see anything else in this story other than McLaren trying to make a far-fetched acusation after having their illegal wing effectively banned. I'm fully convinced there was a backwards step-change on RB20 in Miami with some kind of external intervention, but this whole story turned out to be a non-story for me
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is.

Exactly so, why would they put it there, doesn't seem very logical, and that's my point. Their argument is all to convinient. The effectiveness is out of the equation when we're talking about potentially breaching parc fermé regulations. If there is scope for the to make changes at prohibited times, then it should rightfully be asked to change, as they have. Whether it is worth hundredths or tenths, that's beside the point.

User avatar
Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:33
Vanja #66 wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:11
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:56
A few sources, and iirc comes directly from an explanation made by a team representative, have said that the driver cannot be in the car when making adjustments. This, for me personally, dismantles the fact that it is used for changes during practice sessions. It seems incredibly backwards for that to be its purpose and not time efficient. Cars go onto jacks all the time, cars don't enter the garage without being put on a jack trolley first.
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is. I genuinely don't see anything else in this story other than McLaren trying to make a far-fetched acusation after having their illegal wing effectively banned. I'm fully convinced there was a backwards step-change on RB20 in Miami with some kind of external intervention, but this whole story turned out to be a non-story for me
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is.

Exactly so, why would they put it there, doesn't seem very logical, and that's my point. Their argument is all to convinient. The effectiveness is out of the equation when we're talking about potentially breaching parc fermé regulations. If there is scope for the to make changes at prohibited times, then it should rightfully be asked to change, as they have. Whether it is worth hundredths or tenths, that's beside the point.
Is it any different than any other adjustable setting on a car? I mean, you can adjust lots of things with screws on a car. Why wouldn't a ride-heigh adjustment be obvious to include?

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
102
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Zynerji wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:39
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:33
Vanja #66 wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:11


I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is. I genuinely don't see anything else in this story other than McLaren trying to make a far-fetched acusation after having their illegal wing effectively banned. I'm fully convinced there was a backwards step-change on RB20 in Miami with some kind of external intervention, but this whole story turned out to be a non-story for me
I don't think any significant change in the cockpit can be made with driver in the car, there's barely enough room for their legs and padding as it is.

Exactly so, why would they put it there, doesn't seem very logical, and that's my point. Their argument is all to convinient. The effectiveness is out of the equation when we're talking about potentially breaching parc fermé regulations. If there is scope for the to make changes at prohibited times, then it should rightfully be asked to change, as they have. Whether it is worth hundredths or tenths, that's beside the point.
Is it any different than any other adjustable setting on a car? I mean, you can adjust lots of things with screws on a car. Why wouldn't a ride-heigh adjustment be obvious to include?
It all routes back to them, allegedly changing it under parc fermé. Then naturally you start to look into why or how this thing is designed to allow them to do this whilst going unnoticed for so long. They've obviously put this in a place where working on it wouldn't come across as suspicious.

User avatar
motobaleno
11
Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

pantherxxx wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:05
More and more information is coming out about the solution:
“Mechanics must remove the nose cone, a separate panel, and a carbon section within the footwell in a process that requires multiple mechanics to perform quickly.”

It was originally made to look as if Red Bull could change the floor height with the push of a button, but that's not even close. And I don't see how they could do that under parc fermé without the FIA inspectors noticing it. Unless James Bond is working on the car.
All these you mention are exactly the operation you have to do to access pedal area and adjust or change pedals that is an allowed operation during parc ferme.

User avatar
Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:46
Zynerji wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:39
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:33





Exactly so, why would they put it there, doesn't seem very logical, and that's my point. Their argument is all to convinient. The effectiveness is out of the equation when we're talking about potentially breaching parc fermé regulations. If there is scope for the to make changes at prohibited times, then it should rightfully be asked to change, as they have. Whether it is worth hundredths or tenths, that's beside the point.
Is it any different than any other adjustable setting on a car? I mean, you can adjust lots of things with screws on a car. Why wouldn't a ride-heigh adjustment be obvious to include?
It all routes back to them, allegedly changing it under parc fermé. Then naturally you start to look into why or how this thing is designed to allow them to do this whilst going unnoticed for so long. They've obviously put this in a place where working on it wouldn't come across as suspicious.
So, if this adjustment was accessed from underneath the car instead of the foot box, it would be fine? :wtf:

User avatar
scuderiabrandon
102
Joined: 11 Feb 2023, 08:42

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Zynerji wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:50
scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:46
Zynerji wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:39


Is it any different than any other adjustable setting on a car? I mean, you can adjust lots of things with screws on a car. Why wouldn't a ride-heigh adjustment be obvious to include?
It all routes back to them, allegedly changing it under parc fermé. Then naturally you start to look into why or how this thing is designed to allow them to do this whilst going unnoticed for so long. They've obviously put this in a place where working on it wouldn't come across as suspicious.
So, if this adjustment was accessed from underneath the car instead of the foot box, it would be fine? :wtf:
Less likely that they would be able to adjust it under parc ferme without being noticed.

User avatar
Vanja #66
1564
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

scuderiabrandon wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 17:33
Exactly so, why would they put it there, doesn't seem very logical, and that's my point. Their argument is all to convinient. The effectiveness is out of the equation when we're talking about potentially breaching parc fermé regulations. If there is scope for the to make changes at prohibited times, then it should rightfully be asked to change, as they have. Whether it is worth hundredths or tenths, that's beside the point.
Bib dampers sit under the footwell of the car, their axis intersects the driver around knees I'd say. There are a lot of reasons you'd design the tub to make the adjustment from inside the cockpit footwell for better integration and reducing the number of parts (overall weight too) in that area. There would also be structural and probably aero benefits to such a design.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

I wonder where other teams have their adjustment. I mean, not exactly a million places you could put it really is there.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

organic wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:10
As the FIA pointed out "Any adjustment of the front bib clearance during parc ferme conditions is strictly prohibited by the regulations".

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
16
Joined: 19 Feb 2019, 12:10

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

If you want to give Red Bull benefit of the doubt, putting the adjustment inside the cockpit would make sense if it would be easier and quicker to do. Then it would make sense if it allowed them quicker and easier setup changes in free practices. But now it is claimed that to make a change they still need to remove nosebox, pedal box, etc. So what benefit do they have instead of using a system like any other team?

To me it seems much easier to make an adjustment outside the cockpit, since it is a bib they can have a small removable panel to adjust it from the outside.

I am really struggling to accept anyone dismissing this as a nothing burger. I can't believe anyone genuinely cannot see that Red Bull has no logical reasons to make this type of change without it being used to affect bib height during parc ferme.

User avatar
Quantum
15
Joined: 14 Jan 2017, 00:59

Re: Bib parc fermé ride height trick

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
18 Oct 2024, 16:34


Placing an adjustment device around pedal box is also a lot handier for setup during FPs than having to get the car up on jacks every time.
Lol no chance. Car on Jacks takes seconds with a mechanic under it making the adjustment within a minute if needed.

To access it, Red Bull’s mechanics would have to remove the nose cone, a separate panel, and the carbon section within the footwell.

No way is it "handier".
"Interplay of triads"