Button signs for Mclaren

[timbo]

Button is ok, but he could be better.

That can be said about ANY driver.

[lebesset]

frankly I think that by the time button joined the team this year's car was pretty well finalised ...no consideration as to his likes and dislikes built into the design

under the circumstances I think his performance has been amazing , comments elsewhere about his 12th place finish last time out don't mention the fact that even if he had got the car set up better his race would have been wrecked by the safety car

will be interesting to see how he goes next year with the new weight distribution and tyres ...will they be to his taste ?

[Miguel]

I don't understand the fuss about Button in 2010. If you take a look at his career, this year doesn't seem to be a standout. He's a damn good driver, but not a Hamilton. Incidentaly, many people (me included) thought that Lewis was going to utterly trash him. And what has he done? He's shown that, on average, he's slightly slower than Hamilton, and that he apparently picks up more points than you would have guessed from his pace. Additionally, he's gotten 2 wins in pretty tricky races.

There's also the Massa vs. Button argument. No matter what you think about Germany 2010, I think it's undeniable that the average performance of Button has been better than Massa's. It's not because of the races Massa's been better than Alonso, but because Massa has been nowhere more than once. The points standing reflects that. The points difference between those two is larger than what I'd attribute to the performance delta between both cars. For feck's sake, Massa has been most of the season below Kubica and Rosberg in the standings!

Oh! Yes, both Hamilton and Alonso have outperformed their teammates notably. But is it because their teammates were bad? Or because both Lewis and Fernando have driven brilliantly for most of the season?

[ringo]

I think Button has been thrashed; but you're right can't really complain about that, as long as he brings points.
I disagree that he is close on performance though.

And what has he done? He's shown that, on average, he's slightly slower than Hamilton

That's a little disingenuos that you slip that in.
Average over a season is not important. The races are taken race by race. An average doesn't represent freak qualy sessions like Malaysia and Australia.
I've been seeing roughly 3 to 5 tenths gap in qualifying and race pace.
7 tenths or 5 tenths is not slightly. That's a lifetime in F1. I think it's generally accepted that Button is not really close on pace.
But as i said, Button can't really help that. Hamilton was put up against the fastest driver in F1 at the time, in Alonso; so he's been trained inadvertently to expect any teammate to be as quick as Alonso after 2007.

here are the q3 numbers: + in favour of Button.
korea -0.699
Japan -0.209
sing -0.373
monza +0.310
spa -0.343
hung -0.793
germ +0.061
GB -0.879
europe-0.241
canada-0.415
turkey-0.348
monaco -0.205
spain -0.162
china +0.051
malay +0.839
aust +0.515
bahr -0.461

[zeph]

2008
Hamilton: 98 pnt - 5 wins - 4 x 0 pnt (1 DNF)
Kovalainen: 53 pnt - 1 win - 6 x 0 pnt (3 DNF)

2009
Hamilton: 49 pnt - 2 wins - 7 x 0 pnt (2 DNF / 1 DSQ)
Kovalainen: 22 pnt - 0 wins - 10 x 0 pnt (5 DNF)

I think McLaren was right to let Kovalainen go. Button is a much more consistent driver and points-grabber than Kovalainen was.

True, that's what he has over Kova. But keep in mind Heiki's experience and the fact that he's still developing as a driver.

Hmm, this is Kovalainen's what, fourth season in F1?

Button is ok, but he could be better. Points grabbing is good but can be detrimental if we're to ignore that podiums and wins matter more.

Perhaps, but Button has won more than Kovalainen, too. So whether or not he can be considered a champion (and I do believe he is the reigning one), the fact remains that he is certainly more successful than Kova was at McLaren.

To speculate that Kovalainen may have been better with this car, nah... He drove the winning car in 2008 and failed to capitalize on that. Experienced or not.

[zeph]

I don't understand the fuss about Button in 2010.
.....
edited for brevity, full post above
.....
Oh! Yes, both Hamilton and Alonso have outperformed their teammates notably. But is it because their teammates were bad? Or because both Lewis and Fernando have driven brilliantly for most of the season?

This. Agree with entire post.

[Richard]

Miguel sums it up very neatly, just look at the points & podiums.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Agree with Miguel, couldn't have said it better myself.

Ringo stop talking trash, it's boring now and alot of what your saying just isn't making any sense.

[ringo]

Well i didn't disagree with Miguel at all, that's why i posted the numbers.
If you read the thread from the beginning, you'd understand the context of the continuation.
The questions of whether Button made the right decision to come to Mclaren in the belief he could keep #1 has been answered throughout the season.
It may have well been better he stayed at Mercedes and wait until 2011 for the good car, instead of being the #2 driver at Mclaren for 3 years.

I'm done of course. Race weekend this week, so this thread will soon fade off the front page to hide the conclusion of the season.

[Richard]

The questions of whether Button made the right decision to come to Mclaren in the belief he could keep #1 has been answered throughout the season.
It may have well been better he stayed at Mercedes and wait until 2011 for the good car, instead of being the #2 driver at Mclaren for 3 years.

Seeing the dog of a car that Merc have, I think he made the right call. He's not got enough years left in his career to wait for Merc to rebuild an F1 team.

First step in getting to a WDC is to get in the best car you find. RB & Ferrari were full, so McL was his only option. Second step is to beat your team mate. He nearly did that in the first half of the season. He also seems to enjoy being with McL and there are smiles all round.

So he made the best move out of the options open to him, and he's happy too.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Seeing the dog of a car that Merc have, I think he made the right call.

Dog? 4th=dog?

[ringo]

The mercedes is no dog. It's more like a mule with an unsolvable bowel problem.
It has been kicking strongly in the last half of the season; i wasn't expecting that.
One year passes so quickly, it would be interesting if Button was in merc this year waiting on a good car.

He nearly did that in the first half of the season.

Be honest he never yet seemed like beating hamilton; worst yet the first half of the season. Hamilton's first half is arguably the stronger part of his season.
I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Australia and china were pitstop gambles or hunches that went right.
If you look on the actual pace of both drivers it's evident that it was the circumstances that gave Button a chance to finish ahead of Lewis. The season has shown such mix ups are less likely and not good events to depend on to be #1 in a team.
Mclaren wont give you #1 status if you can gamble 1 or 2 races. When it comes to developing the car as well, speed is the determining factor of the car's progress.
Pitstop strategy or gambles doesn't do much for feedback to the team.

If we take a step back and look, Being #1 in a capable team is more valuable than being the slower driver in a top team. You stand a better chance of winning the title. Winning the WDC ahead of a faster teammate, is like trying to outrun your shadow, it's difficult, the teammate will always be 1 step a head. Barichello wasting his years in a ferrari is the perfect example.
If he looked outside of that top team he may have found himself in a mclaren or a renault.
2011 may well be a strong year for mercedes, Button wouldn't have that pesky Hamilton to worry about. He wouldn't lose sleep figuring out how to finish a race quicker than a driver who is quicker than you even on your own setup.
I can conclude that Hamilton is faster in anything, even a car to Button's liking.
the 2011 Mclaren may well put them in the same situation as this year, only this time Hamilton will be privy to Jenson's cunning.

[lotus7]

Seeing the dog of a car that Merc have, I think he made the right call. He's not got enough years left in his career to wait for Merc to rebuild an F1 team.

Shhhhh.. not so loud please, you have just spoiled Mikey's afternoon nap

[Richard]

Being #1 in a capable team is more valuable than being the slower driver in a top team.

So that's the key point you are arguing.

It is possibly true depending on the driver's motives and if the team have strict team orders.

Button seems happy with his lot. So it was the right deision for him. Obviously you'd rather be finishing 8th but leaidng your team.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Perhaps from Button's point of view he's won the championship in a team built around him, his next challenge is to win it in a team where he has equal status (or perhaps less so?) and win it against the driver everyone seems to compare him to.

In my opinion the driver's championship is something your supposed to win on your own, it's not called the assisted driver's championship.

Ringo, just coming back to your point about Alonso, I don't believe he's known as the fastest driver in F1, he's known as the best at the moment, there is a difference.