Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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GTO
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Joined: 09 Jun 2005, 01:16
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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ringo wrote:I think Ferrari will be Mclaren's closest competitor.
Turkey gave us the impression the car was way behind, but i think that was a one off problem.
The should be stronger in canada on the straights as well. The duct is not perfect for the high speed high g turns, but canada lacks those.
Man, I hope you're right. [-o<
Holm86 wrote:http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-new ... ront-wing/

new front wing yet again.
But, when I hear of Mac just pumping out updates for each race I start to wonder what is Ferrari doing to to keep up? #-o

wesley123
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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i doubt ferrari can keep up, they have never really showed that they can improve. The only times they could improve was when they started with a really bad car, and then came back. But when they start with an pretty well car they cant do it.

I personally think Red Bull should fear the mclarens, the reliability is there and the pace too, Red bull let too many points go
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

feynman
feynman
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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nacho wrote:Is anyone having a thought that perhaps F-duct would not be as significant on these low downforce tracks as it has less drag to take away?
Surely the complete opposite. No?

Tracks aren't called low-downforce because they don't need to run wing, it's because they can't afford to run wing. You always want downforce, they would all want more wing, but can't.

So that is the point of the f-duct.
Bolt on big wing angle for any corners you meet, while everyone else slides and scrabbles, and switch off that extra wing down the long, long straights, the long straights that necessarily mean the circuit is called low-downforce.
(Or fly past anyone that had no choice but to put wing on just to sensibly get round those corners, either way, you're laughing.)

High downforce tracks by defintion, have lots of wing, which usually tells us there is less in the way of straights.

So you have lots of wing in Monaco, not much straight for an f-duct to get up to speed and make a significant difference. (You need long gears and high speeds to best see the effect, drag squares to velocity).
McLaren didn't look that great in Monaco. Canada is the opposite. We'll see what the watch says, but I'd guess the f-duct works best in low-wing tracks, not worse.

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TheRMVR
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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wesley123 wrote:i doubt ferrari can keep up, they have never really showed that they can improve. The only times they could improve was when they started with a really bad car, and then came back. But when they start with an pretty well car they cant do it.
Now I dont agree with that. Last year Ferrari started with a really really bad car and they ended up winning a race and Kimi frequently picking up podium places. They improved their car a lot.
Another fact that shows that Ferrari can improve their cars are the 2006/2007/2008 seasons. In the last couple of races they are always so far ahead of the rest. By the last race they always win. Schumacher could overtake the whole field from behind in '06. Ferrari scored a 1-2 in '07 and Massa won in '08. They are very strong in developing, they almost always end up with the strongest car of the field at the end of the year.

I think the real problem Ferrari has and had in 2009 was the focus of the development. In 2009 way too much focus and attention went to the KERS and not enough on regular updates. The same problem they are facing now with the F-duct. They seem to be stuck with that and forgetting the rest.

McLaren have also proven to be great developers last season. I'm not sure about this one, because Turkey was the most ideal circuit for their car. In Monaco RBR, Renault and Ferrari were quicker.

We'll have to wait and see.

wesley123
wesley123
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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true, but it seems to be a problem with ferrari, making the same mistakes over and over again. Last year they took too much focus on KERS, this year it is the F-Duct, of the get it right, would that bring them to the front of the grid? doubt it.

Also, Canada is also a good grand prix for the mclarens, mclaren always goes well there. In 2008 hamilton was well on its way to win there, in 2007 he won there, in 2006 they were pretty quick and in 2005 they won there too i believe, so it is a bit of an mclaren track, they seem to be doing well on lower downforce tracks.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

dumrick
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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Great post feynman, it does make sense for the potential of the F-Duct to be better exploited where everyone without one is running a shallow wing.

But, wouldn't it require more front wing also to balance the car in corners, gaining some drag there?

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Donuts
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Joined: 01 Jun 2010, 18:28

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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feynman wrote:
nacho wrote:Is anyone having a thought that perhaps F-duct would not be as significant on these low downforce tracks as it has less drag to take away?
Surely the complete opposite. No?

Tracks aren't called low-downforce because they don't need to run wing, it's because they can't afford to run wing. You always want downforce, they would all want more wing, but can't.

So that is the point of the f-duct.
Bolt on big wing angle for any corners you meet, while everyone else slides and scrabbles, and switch off that extra wing down the long, long straights, the long straights that necessarily mean the circuit is called low-downforce.
(Or fly past anyone that had no choice but to put wing on just to sensibly get round those corners, either way, you're laughing.)

High downforce tracks by defintion, have lots of wing, which usually tells us there is less in the way of straights.

So you have lots of wing in Monaco, not much straight for an f-duct to get up to speed and make a significant difference. (You need long gears and high speeds to best see the effect, drag squares to velocity).
McLaren didn't look that great in Monaco. Canada is the opposite. We'll see what the watch says, but I'd guess the f-duct works best in low-wing tracks, not worse.
Hmm... "you always need downforce", but sometimes you need less!?=) Montreal is not so far away from Monte Carlo, the difference is the two straights, other than that, you have slow curves with high curbs and the marginals are small. So you need a car with good mechanical grip and downforce from "low downforce package" will probably be more than enough for these curves and reduce drag on the straights, which means that anyone without an F-duct will gain on the F-duct's(???). The difference is that you loose a lot of drag which aids breaking! So to catch the McLaren's on the straights, Red Bull need to sacrifice their brakes... What I'm saying(it's early morning and I could be dead wrong, so please correct me if I am) is that "is there such a thing as excessive downforce" hence you gain almost nothing from more downforce in a slow curve? If there is, then F-duct will only have advantage if it can also be combined with a low-downforce rear wing. But I think it only stall's the upper element, so the whole thing with F-duct is that you don't need low-downforce rear wing(it only has one element)? I want to add(concearning Red Bull vs. McLaren discussion) that the Renault engine seems to be a better "start and stop"(drivability/response is very important, not only maximum power) engine then the Mercedes engine. This was clearly displayed(or by chance?) in Monte Carlo, where Renault engines dominated!
Last edited by Donuts on 09 Jun 2010, 10:34, edited 2 times in total.
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strad
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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It's a low downforce track which wouldn't favor the Red Bulls, but damn,,now I hear there is a possibility of rain. :(
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Robert_Kubica wrote:
feynman wrote:
nacho wrote:Is anyone having a thought that perhaps F-duct would not be as significant on these low downforce tracks as it has less drag to take away?
Surely the complete opposite. No?

Tracks aren't called low-downforce because they don't need to run wing, it's because they can't afford to run wing. You always want downforce, they would all want more wing, but can't.

So that is the point of the f-duct.
Bolt on big wing angle for any corners you meet, while everyone else slides and scrabbles, and switch off that extra wing down the long, long straights, the long straights that necessarily mean the circuit is called low-downforce.
(Or fly past anyone that had no choice but to put wing on just to sensibly get round those corners, either way, you're laughing.)

High downforce tracks by defintion, have lots of wing, which usually tells us there is less in the way of straights.

So you have lots of wing in Monaco, not much straight for an f-duct to get up to speed and make a significant difference. (You need long gears and high speeds to best see the effect, drag squares to velocity).
McLaren didn't look that great in Monaco. Canada is the opposite. We'll see what the watch says, but I'd guess the f-duct works best in low-wing tracks, not worse.
Hmm... "you always need downforce", but sometimes you need less!?=) Montreal is not so far away from Monte Carlo, the difference is the two straights, other than that, you have slow curves with high curbs and the marginals are small. So you need a car with good mechanical grip and downforce from "low downforce package" will probably be more than enough for these curves and reduce drag on the straights, which means that anyone without an F-duct will gain on the F-duct's(???). The difference is that you loose a lot of drag which aids breaking! So to catch the McLaren's on the straights, Red Bull need to sacrifice their brakes... What I'm saying(it's early morning and I could be dead wrong, so please correct me if I am) is that "is there such a thing as excessive downforce" hence you gain almost nothing from more downforce in a slow curve? If there is, then F-duct will only have advantage if it can also be combined with a low-downforce rear wing. But I think it only stall's the upper element, so the whole thing with F-duct is that you don't need low-downforce rear wing(it only has one element)? I want to add(concearning Red Bull vs. McLaren discussion) that the Renault engine seems to be a better "start and stop"(drivability/response is very important, not only maximum power) engine then the Mercedes engine. This was clearly displayed(or by chance?) in Monte Carlo, where Renault engines dominated!
If you are comparing it to Monaco, a "low downforce track" Look who won there!

andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/5017

Rain possible on Sunday. Here's hoping! [-o<

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ringo
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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For Sure!!

RDJEHV
RDJEHV
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Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 18:41

Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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http://twitpic.com/1tfq7g

is there a reason for the a-symmetrical welding?

andrew
andrew
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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RDJEHV wrote:http://twitpic.com/1tfq7g

is there a reason for the a-symmetrical welding?
Easier to lift than having it fully welded? Just a guess.

RacingManiac
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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andrew wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/5017

Rain possible on Sunday. Here's hoping! [-o<
Here is not...lol

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Canadian GP 2010 - Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

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The Circuit Gilles Vileneuve has had new tarmac laid at the places where it broke up during its last Formula 1 event in 2008.

Turn two (the Senna hairpin), turns six and seven and turn ten (the Casino hairpin) all suffered a lot of damage during the qualifying session for the 2008 race.

They were patched up with quick-drying cement overnight but that didn’t prevent the problem recurring during the race. The track had also broken up in 2007.

Part of the problem is the harsh Canadian winter which weakens the tarmac. Past occasions when F1 races were been disrupted – even postponed – by tracks breaking up include the 1984 Dallas Grand Prix and 1985 Belgian Grand Prix.

The track also has new tarmac run-offs at turns six and eight for this year’s race.


I think that resurfacing is not good enough for the problem we saw over many years at the Senna hairpin. My understanding is that frost is getting into the deeper earth structures and pushes the tarmac up. If that is really the problem they can only cure this by digging the track up several feet deep and exchange the faulty earth with frost safe material.
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