British GP 2010 - Silverstone

[myurr]

It does make sense for RBR to start favouring one driver over the other because they cant afford to have 2 of their drivers cancelling out each other advantage throughout the entire season and then end up losing the WDC to Lewis Hamilton. And this is especially more so for a team that has NEVER win a championshop before.

As a drink manufacturer, I believe the ultimate price for the team will be to win the WDC rather than the WCC, and for that reason RBR will do whatever it takes to win it.

I don't remember you calling for the team to support Webber from Turkey onwards - he was after all ahead in the championship and on pole. Yet found himself, in effect and in my opinion, being set up by his team so that team mate could get past.

Winning a championship is important, but to many how you win is even more important. Schumacher won so many championships that his reputation should be unquestionable, yet because of the way he went about winning he has as many detractors as he has fans.

Coming in to this season I actually preferred Vettel to Webber, but to my eyes he seems desperate to mould himself into the new Schumacher including becoming the villain of F1. Again in my opinion, he's picked up the arrogance, stupid trademark celebration, become an on track bully willing to push other cars off the circuit, and is favoured by the team even when it is unnecessary.

Personally I deplore all favouritism within a team until it is clear that only one driver has any hope of winning the championship. Bad luck on one side of the garage should never be turned into bad luck for the other side. Had Vettel crashed out and damaged his chassis in FP3, would anyone really have supported him jumping into Webber's car for qualifying with Webber having to start from the back of the grid? If no then this again becomes a question of where do you draw the line, and in my case I believe it should have to be exceptional circumstances for a team to favour either driver in the way Red Bull did today.

So another black mark against Vettel and Red Bull for me, and a hope that anyone but Vettel wins the race and championship - don't even care who.

[WhiteBlue]

I believe that the whole wing issue was completely blown up out of proportion by reporters who use controversy for selling news paper inches. Naturally Webber's rebellious stance did not help much to communicate the real facts behind the wing decision. To understand them it can help to look at the full picture.

Webber has enjoyed preferential treatment by Red Bull from the Australian race without Vettel ever saying a word about it. From Australia Webber got the use of the lightest of all chassis available to the two Red Bull drivers. He started in #02 for one race in Bahrain. Vettel started in #03. Webber then switched to the spare chassis #04 in Australia when that became available. #04 was lighter than #02 and lighter than #03. He eventually wrote that off in Valencia. He is now in #03 which is lighter than #02 which is driven by Vettel since Turkey. That wasn't the only help that the team gave him in terms of the use of lighter components. They made special non homologated lighter components for him since Australia. Horner referred to this in his Q&A at Autosport and Webber himself told it proudly to his fan base before the Australian race.

Regarding the new spec wing it is relevant to know that Red Bull only had one available on Friday which was shared by the drivers. They had an additional second unit on Saturday. The new spec wing isn't a performance development per se but is meant to support aggressive corner turn in, which is primarily practiced by Vettel and not by Webber. Unsurprisingly the FP1 and FP2 tests on Friday saw Vettel issue a ringing endorsement of the new spec wing while Mark was undecided about it's merits. Again these facts can be read in the Q&A at Autosport. Next we saw a new spec nose cone fail on Seb's car in the middle of the fast straight along the new pits in FP3. All reasonable people do agree that it wasn't his fault but the teams for designing or fitting the nose box insufficiently for the inertial forces over the bumps there. At this time none of the new spec wings had been finally allocated to any of the drivers. It is nonsense to speak of Vettel's or Webber's wing before the qualifying.

Horner confirmed that the teams always make the final decision about the final specification of the car that any driver takes into any session. That includes allocation of components that are rare or advantageous. It is standard operating procedure. There was no Vettel's wing or Webber's wing, full stop. The team also had to decide if the single available new spec wing should be raced at all. Adrian Newey decided that he needed feed back for the development of the wing from a driver during the Silverstone race. The wing is part of a wider package that apparently has some development priority. At this point it became clear that the team would have an advantage if the race test was done by Vettel because his style compliments the wing's design objectives. Alas this wasn't the argument that Horner used as a justification for his decision.

This brings us to the final point of how the single wing got allocated to Sebastian Vettel. Horner said that he decided based on championship standing and the results of FP3. Both are reasonable criteria which cannot be refuted. Vettel had used the wing better in FP3 because it complimented his driving style. Webber wasn't positive about it in FP3 and did some other evaluation work instead of focussing on the new spec wing as Vettel did.

Considering all these facts I fail to see how Horner's decision can be criticized as unsporting or favoritism.

[tok-tokkie]

EDIT: This was written while WB's above post was being submitted. His information makes me reconsider what I wrote.

-----------------------------------

It strikes me as blatant favouritism to take a part off one car to put it on the other. I could understand it if the team or driver was on a knife edge for winning the title but not at this point in the season.

Each team consists of two sub-teams; the crew assigned to each car & driver. Above them is the management which includes Horner & Newey. Then there is Helmut Marko over them standing between the team and sponsor Dietrich Mateschitz. Remember how critical he was of Webber after the Turkey collision.

By favouring one of the sub-teams at the expense of the other you create or agravate antagonism between them. The last thing management should be doing; it is in fact the worst thing they could be doing.

Webber has signed a contract to stay at Red Bull so he is tied into this team. He is not a second string driver like Barrichello or Massa who will accept the supporting role. He has nothing to lose & will do all in his ability to beat Vettel. I expect a repeat of what happened in Turkey - the team telling him to select a weaker engine map while leaving Vettel on the most powerful. But I expect Webber to ignore them & chase Vettel. What can Red Bull do now that he is contracted? Webber is starting on the poor side of the track but I expect him to be wild at this race & for the rest of the season in his attempt to become WDC.

Red Bull (Marko I believe) have created a huge problem within the team for themselves and it may cost them dearly. They have a commanding advantage (0.8 seconds at this race) but this decision could eliminate it. Let us see what happens.

[Super racing]

I hope Vettle blows an engine, but then they would probly give him the remainder of Webbers fresh ones.

[TheRMVR]

I believe that the whole wing issue was completely blown up out of proportion by reporters who use controversy for selling news paper inches. Naturally Webber's rebellious stance did not help much to communicate the real facts behind the wing decision. To understand them it can help to look at the full picture.

Webber has enjoyed preferential treatment by Red Bull from the Australian race without Vettel ever saying a word about it. From Australia Webber got the use of the lightest of all chassis available to the two Red Bull drivers. He started in #02 for one race in Bahrain. Vettel started in #03. Webber then switched to the spare chassis #04 in Australia when that became available. #04 was lighter than #02 and lighter than #03. He eventually wrote that off in Valencia. He is now in #03 which is lighter than #02 which is driven by Vettel since Turkey. That wasn't the only help that the team gave him in terms of the use of lighter components. They made special non homologated lighter components for him since Australia. Horner referred to this in his Q&A at Autosport and Webber himself told it proudly to his fan base before the Australian race.

Regarding the new spec wing it is relevant to know that Red Bull only had one available on Friday which was shared by the drivers. They had an additional second unit on Saturday. The new spec wing isn't a performance development per se but is meant to support aggressive corner turn in, which is primarily practiced by Vettel and not by Webber. Unsurprisingly the FP1 and FP2 tests on Friday saw Vettel issue a ringing endorsement of the new spec wing while Mark was undecided about it's merits. Again these facts can be read in the Q&A at Autosport. Next we saw a new spec nose cone fail on Seb's car in the middle of the fast straight along the new pits in FP3. All reasonable people do agree that it wasn't his fault but the teams for designing or fitting the nose box insufficiently for the inertial forces over the bumps there. At this time none of the new spec wings had been finally allocated to any of the drivers. It is nonsense to speak of Vettel's or Webber's wing before the qualifying.

Horner confirmed that the teams always make the final decision about the final specification of the car that any driver takes into any session. That includes allocation of components that are rare or advantageous. It is standard operating procedure. There was no Vettel's wing or Webber's wing, full stop. The team also had to decide if the single available new spec wing should be raced at all. Adrian Newey decided that he needed feed back for the development of the wing from a driver during the Silverstone race. The wing is part of a wider package that apparently has some development priority. At this point it became clear that the team would have an advantage if the race test was done by Vettel because his style compliments the wing's design objectives. Alas this wasn't the argument that Horner used as a justification for his decision.

This brings us to the final point of how the single wing got allocated to Sebastian Vettel. Horner said that he decided based on championship standing and the results of FP3. Both are reasonable criteria which cannot be refuted. Vettel had used the wing better in FP3 because it complimented his driving style. Webber wasn't positive about it in FP3 and did some other evaluation work instead of focussing on the new spec wing as Vettel did.

Considering all these facts I fail to see how Horner's decision can be criticized as unsporting or favoritism.

Brilliant!

[megz]

Webber has enjoyed preferential treatment by Red Bull from the Australian race without Vettel ever saying a word about it. From Australia Webber got the use of the lightest of all chassis available to the two Red Bull drivers. He started in #02 for one race in Bahrain. Vettel started in #03. Webber then switched to the spare chassis #04 in Australia when that became available. #04 was lighter than #02 and lighter than #03. He eventually wrote that off in Valencia. He is now in #03 which is lighter than #02 which is driven by Vettel since Turkey. That wasn't the only help that the team gave him in terms of the use of lighter components. They made special non homologated lighter components for him since Australia. Horner referred to this in his Q&A at Autosport and Webber himself told it proudly to his fan base before the Australian race.

I wouldn't call those instances as Webber favouritism as Webber naturally weighs a considerable amount more than the much shorter Vettel, I'd consider it more equalisation.

On to the wing issue, I agree with your post on the most part WhiteBlue, the wings were for the team to allocate but one would assume that by bringing two to the Grand Prix there was to be one for each of the drivers. If, as you say, Mark was less sold on the new front wing I don't think it's such a big deal. If he didn't feel it made the car any faster or easier to drive then he shouldn't be crying foul and I don't think he truly is properly miffed about it. As you say the media has over stated it, but they always would. Hopefully there isn't a big difference in the performance in the two itterations as I want to see a fair battle on track between the two drivers, one of whom I support because he's straight up and fair - Webber, the other I support for being opportunistic without being dangerous or arrogant like Hamilton and that is Vettel. All power to them this weekend.

[myurr]

Considering all these facts I fail to see how Horner's decision can be criticized as unsporting or favoritism.

For me there are three reasons:

1) The part was fitted to one car, was physically taken off and fitted to the other.
2) In doing so they compromised the set up of one car to the benefit of the other.
3) It was entirely unnecessary.

Red Bull have compromised Webber's car to Vettel's benefit, that is an undeniable fact (a word you like to use). Webber had set up his car with that wing in mind and completed final practice with that wing on the car. Are you honestly saying that the part would have had no effect on the setup of the car or lap time for one car, but was worth enough lap time on the other car to make all this controversy worthwhile?

The wing mounting failure was in no way Vettel's fault, but it did happen to his car. However thanks to Red Bull's actions it may as well have all happened to Webber instead. Add to this the murmurings of Webber's final qualifying run being compromised through being timed so that he only had one run to Vettel's two....

Finally for reason number 3 - Red Bull had such an advantage that it simply wasn't necessary. There was no chance of any other car getting ahead of Vettel, giving Red Bull an easy 1 - 2 just with the cars in a different order. This would seem to point to them preferring the cars to be in this particular order and favouring Vettel over Webber.

[Super racing]

the other I support for being opportunistic without being dangerous or arrogant like Hamilton and that is Vettel. All power to them this weekend.

Yes, If Turkey taught us anything it is what you have just posted.

[WhiteBlue]

I wouldn't call those instances as Webber favouritism as Webber naturally weighs a considerable amount more than the much shorter Vettel, I'd consider it more equalisation.

I believe that one can hold different opinions on that one. Tall racing drivers carry a certain genetic disadvantage but it isn't the job of the team to rectify that IMO. Fine with me if they do it for Webber but he should acknowledge it when the talk starts about favoritism. Horner also found it worthwhile to mention it.

1) The part was fitted to one car, was physically taken off and fitted to the other.
2) In doing so they compromised the set up of one car to the benefit of the other.
3) It was entirely unnecessary.

1) It was explained in detail why this did not matter. The team will always decide the final spec of the car, based on rational decisions and not based on emotional stuff like that.

2) It is something that you assume. A more rational assumption is that Pilbeam/Webber had an optimized setup for both configs which did not yield a performance advantage for either of the two. That's what the team says.

3) It was necessary to support the Red Bull development program according to Newey and Horner. I believe they are best suitd to make such a decision, at least better than a fan who cannot know all detail.

[timbo]

2) It is something that you assume. A more rational assumption is that Pilbeam/Webber had an optimized setup for both configs which did not yield a performance advantage for either of the two. That's what the team says.

That might be true, but Webber was visibly dissatisfied with team's decision.

[Fil]

I wouldn't call those instances as Webber favouritism as Webber naturally weighs a considerable amount more than the much shorter Vettel, I'd consider it more equalisation.

Well Webber was faster in FP3.. so by giving the new wing to Vettel, RB was technically 'equalising' the performance of the drivers..

I believe that one can hold different opinions on that one. Tall racing drivers carry a certain genetic disadvantage but it isn't the job of the team to rectify that IMO. Fine with me if they do it for Webber but he should acknowledge it when the talk starts about favoritism.

I haven't had the time to skim through all the news this weekend, so please pardon my ignorance..

Has Webber specifically mentioned 'favouritism' since 'wing-gate' occurred, or is this solely a media-driven beatup?

[myurr]

1) The part was fitted to one car, was physically taken off and fitted to the other.
2) In doing so they compromised the set up of one car to the benefit of the other.
3) It was entirely unnecessary.

1) It was explained in detail why this did not matter. The team will always decide the final spec of the car, based on rational decisions and not based on emotional stuff like that.

2) It is something that you assume. A more rational assumption is that Pilbeam/Webber had an optimized setup for both configs which did not yield a performance advantage for either of the two. That's what the team says.

3) It was necessary to support the Red Bull development program according to Newey and Horner. I believe they are best suitd to make such a decision, at least better than a fan who cannot know all detail.

1) It was explained in detail why Vettel should have passed Webber in Turkey and why he was then entitled to take any line he pleased as he was a little bit ahead - didn't make it any less controversial or right in a large number of peoples opinions. Rationally when you have a dominant car and two relatively evenly matched drivers then each part should have remained with the driver to which it had been assigned, and not pulled from one car to another especially when the title battle is supposedly still on between them. According to one of the drivers involved the part was worth 1/10th of a second - that's a performance advantage given to one car in deference to the other.

2) The majority of their running was with the new wing, so by definition they would not have had an equal setup for the other configuration as they wouldn't have spent as long running with it. Close maybe, but not equal. If the part is worth 1/10th of a second to Webber, as he himself states, then it would have been a very noticeable difference to the driver and he would have had to adapt.

3) That was their justification for not keeping things equal by ditching the wing altogether - the data would have been equally relevant to the development program had it been on Webber's car.

[komninosm]

You have to feel sorry for Webber Seb breaks his new front wing and RB then take his faster front wing and straps it to Sebs car, leaving Webber with the older slower version for the weekend.

But obviously there is no favouritism in the team - honestly.

I'm hoping for a Webber win tomorrow following a Vettel front wing failure. I don't dislike Vettel by any means, i just think this is a step too far.

I liked Vettel up to this year. He's been a total @$$.

[WhiteBlue]

Has Webber specifically mentioned 'favouritism' since 'wing-gate' occurred, or is this solely a media-driven beatup?

Webber simply indicated that he was displeased with something and the hacks started to grill Horner. It was done with some skill utilizing their natural instincts.


To all. Have a great race!! I can't wait.

[komninosm]

Winning a championship is important, but to many how you win is even more important. Schumacher won so many championships that his reputation should be unquestionable, yet because of the way he went about winning he has as many detractors as he has fans.

Coming in to this season I actually preferred Vettel to Webber, but to my eyes he seems desperate to mould himself into the new Schumacher including becoming the villain of F1. Again in my opinion, he's picked up the arrogance, stupid trademark celebration, become an on track bully willing to push other cars off the circuit, and is favoured by the team even when it is unnecessary.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>