HRT F111 Cosworth

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marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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ask your driver and he will always DEMAND the new bits.Ask the Engineer and he will ravel about the new finds in the tunnel...Objectivity and realism are not strengths of racers..
In my book the potential gains are wiped out by the fact you are not 100% sure how the update will affect the car as a system.
So it´s a game of hit and miss and as soon as you deviate from prdeictions you are in it at the deep end unlikely to recover.
With the pirellis everything will now being even more difficult..as you don´t have unlimited tyres and you have to make your judgement on a set of tyres degrading at a rate of say half a second per lap and possibly not degrading without changing the balance....I don´t see how you can differentiate reliably tyre and update under thes circumstances...it´s even hard to see how you would find the setup for the two compounds.

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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ESPImperium wrote: Williams are a team that are doing the same as well, in the past few seasons as well, especially. 2009 when they started to run out of aero development money. Im sure 2009 saw McLaren and Ferrari do the same early season before they got their DDDs.
Interesting example. Williams suddenly got faster halfway through last season as a result of some unspecified input from Barichello that made the car more driveable. I'm guessing, but Barichello's input may have been to simply focus on setup rather than aero, or at least to somehow integrate setup improvements with aero steps. He saw how Brawn improved their car during 2009 with little budget and took this knowledge to Williams?

From a financial point of view I'm skeptical that a midfield team should spend on aero development in order to improve their position in the constructors' championship from, say, 8th to 7th. The resulting increase in FOM income surely doesn't equal the development cost. Better to devote scarce resources on (relatively) cheap setup improvements for the current car and on the design of next year's car. But this gets away from the whole realization that aero development may not yield net performance gains in the first place.

JGomezH
JGomezH
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Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 12:05
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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New steering wheel used in Barcelona tests.

Edited:removed from imageshack server
Last edited by JGomezH on 24 Feb 2011, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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bill shoe wrote:
ESPImperium wrote: Williams are a team that are doing the same as well, in the past few seasons as well, especially. 2009 when they started to run out of aero development money. Im sure 2009 saw McLaren and Ferrari do the same early season before they got their DDDs.
Interesting example. Williams suddenly got faster halfway through last season as a result of some unspecified input from Barichello that made the car more driveable. I'm guessing, but Barichello's input may have been to simply focus on setup rather than aero, or at least to somehow integrate setup improvements with aero steps. He saw how Brawn improved their car during 2009 with little budget and took this knowledge to Williams?

From a financial point of view I'm skeptical that a midfield team should spend on aero development in order to improve their position in the constructors' championship from, say, 8th to 7th. The resulting increase in FOM income surely doesn't equal the development cost. Better to devote scarce resources on (relatively) cheap setup improvements for the current car and on the design of next year's car. But this gets away from the whole realization that aero development may not yield net performance gains in the first place.
I think it was development, still. But the development was focused in a certain way that they KNEW would develop the car. Rubens said that his input was that the car's downforce was good, but the characteristics and the way it had downforce wasn't good
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H. Zedozil
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Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 04:42
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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JGomezH wrote:New steering wheel used in Barcelona tests.

Image
The old one looks so cheap! probably this year they will have a better budget

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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I'm only seeing an image placeholder with a frog in an icecube :shock:
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JGomezH
JGomezH
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Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 12:05
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Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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yes, problem with imageshack ...

uploaded to tinypic :

Image

and another view of F110+

Image

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dice782
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Joined: 23 Mar 2010, 20:50
Location: UK

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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Keir wrote:
bill shoe wrote:Great comments from Kolles about catching up toward the rest of the field last year with literally no new parts. This also reminds me of Mercedes last year-- they quit all new parts development relatively early in the season and then proceeded to gradually qualify and race higher for the rest of the year.

marcush, I agree with your doubt about development gains but I think you are too mild.

There is something very wrong with current F1 in-season development!!!

I think in-season aero development at a typical well-funded F1 team is largely a frantic masturbatory excercise to create new aerodynamic "upgrades" and "steps" that give small aero improvements. Meanwhile, the fundamentals of car setup never get the attention or time to be optimized in general, much less optimized for each new aero step. The teams say they "gained two tenths" from the latest step and this is true from an aero point of view but they ignore the cost of having non-optimized suspension setup for this step. The net result is almost no gain, or quite plausibly a negative gain based on HRT/Mercedes evidence.

GP2 teams obviously have no new aero parts during a season so they develop the hell out of the setup and make steady net gains over time.

This is a general theme that DaveW has pointed out on several occasions but I think the evidence of HRT and Mercedes make this clear even if you don't have the insider perspective or experience of a DaveW.
It could be argued that another example of this was the Torro Rosso team in 2008. They didn't take on all of the upgrades available from Red Bull Technology, rather they concentrated on optimising the package by putting together the right subset of developments to allow a benign, pointy car that the drivers felt confident pushing with.
Possibly most gains in upgrades might just be psychological or a placebo effect? This might explain why we get some drivers constantly out performing their team mates while others constantly complain about set up? I think “There is something very wrong with current F1 in-season development” would be another interesting Forum topic!

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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raymondu999 wrote:
bill shoe wrote:
ESPImperium wrote: Williams are a team that are doing the same as well, in the past few seasons as well, especially. 2009 when they started to run out of aero development money. Im sure 2009 saw McLaren and Ferrari do the same early season before they got their DDDs.
Interesting example. Williams suddenly got faster halfway through last season as a result of some unspecified input from Barichello that made the car more driveable. I'm guessing, but Barichello's input may have been to simply focus on setup rather than aero, or at least to somehow integrate setup improvements with aero steps. He saw how Brawn improved their car during 2009 with little budget and took this knowledge to Williams?

From a financial point of view I'm skeptical that a midfield team should spend on aero development in order to improve their position in the constructors' championship from, say, 8th to 7th. The resulting increase in FOM income surely doesn't equal the development cost. Better to devote scarce resources on (relatively) cheap setup improvements for the current car and on the design of next year's car. But this gets away from the whole realization that aero development may not yield net performance gains in the first place.
I think it was development, still. But the development was focused in a certain way that they KNEW would develop the car. Rubens said that his input was that the car's downforce was good, but the characteristics and the way it had downforce wasn't good
I always think that the mid feild to rear end teams should concentrate on honing their package over the first say 6-8 races, introducing some detail changes to change a couple of small areas that create a big effect on the whole car. This is the way Mike Gascogyne worked with Spyker/Force India and the way he worked with Bennaton/Renault and Toyota to a lesser effect to the other teams due to the Toyota culture. Altho he always introduced a B-Spec chassis whitch are now outlawed.

I think once a team can understand their car fully thats when they should introduce their first major upgrade. For the larger teams this is usually before the first race, but needs some propper race world data as well from more tracks, for the midfeild to the rear this i think is usually from end of round 4 onwards, and this usually means introducing their first major upgrade arround round 5 or 6.

Force India lost the P5 place in the constructors table last year due to lack of investment arround the final asian swing last year, ideally they could have introduced a upgrade arround Singapore/Japan and honed it for the final couple of races. this could have kept the raging Williams behind the, but Tonios crash at Brazil as well as the Williams double score at Brazil ultimatly lost them the P5 posistion.

Moral to the story, the midfeild to rear end teams have to plan their upgrades and also learn on how to use them, have a major upgrade early on, another big (but not major) upgrade arround the Round 10 to Round 12 mark with a small upgrade arround the end season swing. It means they can target specific gains in their package and also give the drivers the best chance posible to race at all rounds. And with what the teams call a Random Event Occurance, who knows what could happen???

If i were hispania id be looking at targeting whoring the hell out the setup of the car first, get the cars foundations strong and then attack with some performance upgrades, and quality updates of that. But like Williams, they need a quality driver, and an experienced driver of that to make the diffrence in setup as well, and if they dont hire Liuzzi for this, they will lack the ultimate half second in pace they could need once it comes down to "squeeky bum time" at the end of the season.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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Kolles has heard you..they bring a new chassis for Monaco already... :shock:

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dice782
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Joined: 23 Mar 2010, 20:50
Location: UK

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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marcush. wrote:Kolles has heard you..they bring a new chassis for Monaco already... :shock:
Yes I have read this somewhere as well! Have been google-translating some Spanish HRT fan sites and it seems that HRT are targeting a major upgrade for Monaco, They say an HRT F111B spec developed with the TATA CFD programme. Has anyone ever heard any news of the TATA CFD program?

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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Kolles claims to go full blown CFD without making noise about it....sidekick Wirth..He says they are going to have or have already? what is allowed maximum.
Key player is geoff willis who kept 40 freelance engineers busy around the world via internet to get the car designed .

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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cloud/cluster engineering? :wink:
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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Folding@Home CFD???

Intresting consept, and surly cheaper than a full blown on-site Albert3 ala Sauber.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: HRT F111 Cosworth

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tbh if Kolles found time to look here ..he would realise that there is almost a think tank for new ideas and concepts..so he could call this his R+D department...
quite a few bits we see now were discussed already years ago ...
And even for copiers it is not the worst source ..