Mercedes GP 2011

[dren]

You are going on times set by Sam Bird in testing where who knows what fuel loads they have.

Its the 4th quickest car out there, and that means it isnt a dog.

Right, who knows what fuel loads they were running. Who knows what tires they were using. Who knows what they were testing. And then there are the discrepancies between all of the young test drivers, which typically is larger than the F1 drivers. So, when you take all of that into play, it really doesn't mean much where the Mercedes places in the times. The data the team obtains does.

We have seen over the length of the season that the W02 has been consistantly the 4th best car.

[Cocles]

I believe Aldo Costa begins his job today at Mercedes GP. Good stuff.

[dren]

Here's hoping he can contribute in a good way.

[marcush.]

I´m not happy at all that Mercedes has shown again their unability to constantly improve their package .Brasil was the last race for w02 and it looks like the potential of the car is just not there with even Force India matching and bettering them .
As one can safely bet all the cars potential was maximised towards the end of the year
(potential gains to be found by development are in no relation to the effort needed )the base concept of W02 was just too weak and flawed too much .
I honestly hope that after producing two dogs in a row MercedesGrandPrix has learned an awful lot about what not to do.People say you learn most from things that do not work .
Brawns troops should be the heroes of failed projects with 4 morons and a diamond produced in 5 years.a sucess rate of 1 in 5 is not what you´d call a good rate...

[MIKEY_!]

They stopped development a while back I thought. No surprise FI caught them as they hadn't given up on their car.

[Cocles]

Exactly. MGP stopped development while FI kept going full-bore, since FI was still in competition with Renault right up to the end. Brawn said as much in a recent interview (now if I could just fine it and link it).

Anyway, MGP has done all we could ask. Dr. Z gave Brawn the go ahead to start a hiring spree, and Brawn filled the ranks based on Bell's suggestions. At this point they've "done something about it". Now it's time to wait and see.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1 mikey and cocles.

Gets depressing reading some posts regards mercedes gp. Watching them race has been entertaining this year even if it's for 6th place.
Mercedes do not have a god given right to win, for that they must earn hard fought.
That they have the humility to continue and make changes to at least try push the team up the Grid should in my view
be commended rather than condemned.

If you understand the problems mercedes faced with the w02, you see that it would be wasted efforts extracting more from the car given they were over a second behind the leaders.

Bell will have given the team strong technical leadership. This doesn't mean he will have signed off a rocket ship for 2012, but it's a start. You learn from your mistakes if you take time to find out what went wrong, that's exacty what mercedes are in the middle of doing.

[dren]

I´m not happy at all that Mercedes has shown again their unability to constantly improve their package .Brasil was the last race for w02 and it looks like the potential of the car is just not there with even Force India matching and bettering them .
As one can safely bet all the cars potential was maximised towards the end of the year
(potential gains to be found by development are in no relation to the effort needed )the base concept of W02 was just too weak and flawed too much .
I honestly hope that after producing two dogs in a row MercedesGrandPrix has learned an awful lot about what not to do.People say you learn most from things that do not work .
Brawns troops should be the heroes of failed projects with 4 morons and a diamond produced in 5 years.a sucess rate of 1 in 5 is not what you´d call a good rate...

I don't get it. The team did constantly improve their package for most of the year, when they were actually developing it. They were secure in the championship in 4th place. They quit development when Force India did not. The car wasn't competitive at the start, so they were stuck with that as a base. The W02 wasn't born well, but the team did a hell of a job on development through the season. This is a big improvement over previous years.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ok I'll say it now.

Mercedes involvement in F1 will probably bow come to an end in 2014. The RRA and FOTA are dead and these were the tenets Mercedes entered on.
I don't think mercedes has the appetite for a full scale budget war with red bull and Ferrari.

Bloody shame too.

[dren]

I guess it just depends on how competitive they can be on their actual budget.

[Morteza]

Big budget never brings success and Toyota is the obvious example. But you need money in order to survive and get good results. Mercedes have the money, but they need the results as well in order to keep the team alive. How many more unsuccessful seasons can the board of Mercedes tolerate? If they see they can never win in this game, I guess they call it quits.

[Cocles]

JET, where did you read that these were the tenets? Is it possible they could leave over this? Sure. Is it probable? 2 years is a century in F1. It's way, way too early to be making that sort of claim. FOTA could be re-established and fall apart again in that time. An RRA could be included in the concorde agreement. There's simply too much chaos theory fog right now to clearly see what's probable at the end of 2014.

[wunderkind]

JET, where did you read that these were the tenets? Is it possible they could leave over this? Sure. Is it probable? 2 years is a century in F1. It's way, way too early to be making that sort of claim. FOTA could be re-established and fall apart again in that time. An RRA could be included in the concorde agreement. There's simply too much chaos theory fog right now to clearly see what's probable at the end of 2014.

I think what JET referred to was Dr Zetsche's reason for purchasing BrawnGP in 2009. Dr Zetsche reasoned that for the annual cash contribution and the supply of free engines to McLaren, Mercedes could have its own F1 team for a similar price. Also, it was forcast at the time that the price of having its own team would not rise substantially if the RRA remains in place in the future.

JET, no need to be too pessimistic. I am certain the powers-that-be at Stuttgart would like to remain in F1 if they become genuine championship contenders. They wouldn't mind spending a bit more if they get the results. F1 is one of the few key image differentiators that Mercedes has over Audi and BMW.

I wonder where the FIA is on the RRA issue. Surely it is in their interest to see cost containment rather than cost blow-outs and risk seeing teams leave the sport.

[NewtonMeter]

I´m not happy at all that Mercedes has shown again their unability to constantly improve their package .Brasil was the last race for w02 and it looks like the potential of the car is just not there with even Force India matching and bettering them .
As one can safely bet all the cars potential was maximised towards the end of the year
(potential gains to be found by development are in no relation to the effort needed )the base concept of W02 was just too weak and flawed too much .
I honestly hope that after producing two dogs in a row MercedesGrandPrix has learned an awful lot about what not to do.People say you learn most from things that do not work .
Brawns troops should be the heroes of failed projects with 4 morons and a diamond produced in 5 years.a sucess rate of 1 in 5 is not what you´d call a good rate...

I don't get it. The team did constantly improve their package for most of the year, when they were actually developing it. They were secure in the championship in 4th place. They quit development when Force India did not. The car wasn't competitive at the start, so they were stuck with that as a base. The W02 wasn't born well, but the team did a hell of a job on development through the season. This is a big improvement over previous years.

I agree completely. Last year the upgrades rarely made much of a difference. If you'd recall. They made larger gains in 2010 by, ironically, NOT upgrading and better understanding their car near the end of the season.

This is precisely the reason why I hate it when people write this season off as a disaster for mercedes, compared to 2010. Ok, I know I'm going off on a tangent now, but hear me out.

Although last year they secured 3 podiums but every one of them was due to bad luck from the big 3. Not a single one was on merit. This year, the compitition stepped up their game and became A LOT more reliable, especially RBR. I think when one looks at the details, 2011 was actually a lot more successful than 2010 - at least from an organisational perspective. My guess is that it's the work of Bobby B.

When one views the entire trend of 2010 and the developments not working, is it a surprise that the W02 didn't really work either? Hell, it was conceived in 2010, was it not? Now compare how the developments were successful in 2011, it's not far fetched to believe that 2012 will be as successfull as the developments were in 2011 (which was pretty good, IMO).

So shoot me, I'm an optimist.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@wunderkind


Yes that was basically what Zetsche had said. And I hope you are right about Mercedes staying in F1, but I just dont see them blowing 250 million a year to be competitive.
At the rpesent time MErcedes nearly made money out the team in 2010.
2011 I have yet to see figures but it will be a marginal increase in expenditure.

With the RRA being blown apart, Red Bull can literally burn cash and the others wont be able to do a thing about it.
It riles me that because of this, Mercedes-Benz involvement could come to an end.
The reasons are that they will not accept 4th forever....