Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[63l8qrrfy6]

About the split turbo concept, does anyone know how you can create a shaft stiff enough to avoid torsional vibrations and in meantime have a very low intertia to avoid lag? Or is the turbo spinning at a more or less constant speed in the hybrid setup?

Well the trick is to make the shaft rather compliant such that the 1st torsion mode is below the excitation frequencies.
In a hybrid turbocharger I imagine that these excitation frequencies are quite high (blade pass frequency and half pole orders are the only ones I can think of).

I think godlameroso is right - the lateral vibration is the killer, causing shaft bending loads and bearing radial loads.

[gruntguru]

About the split turbo concept, does anyone know how you can create a shaft stiff enough to avoid torsional vibrations and in meantime have a very low intertia to avoid lag? Or is the turbo spinning at a more or less constant speed in the hybrid setup?

Well the trick is to make the shaft rather compliant such that the 1st torsion mode is below the excitation frequencies.
In a hybrid turbocharger I imagine that these excitation frequencies are quite high (blade pass frequency and half pole orders are the only ones I can think of).

I think godlameroso is right - the lateral vibration is the killer, causing shaft bending loads and bearing radial loads.

Yeah - shaft whirl.

Lowest excitation frequency is probably blowdown pulses - 500 Hz (@10,000 rpm)

@ TNTHead. Shaft Inertia is much less significant than the larger diameter components (proportional to diameter squared). Remember that the MGUH is occupying that space (between the turbo wheels) and its inertia must be counted regardless of location.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Yeah - shaft whirl.

Lowest excitation frequency is probably blowdown pulses - 500 Hz (@10,000 rpm)

It's uneven firing though so that would make it 250 hz (1.5th order at 10000 rpm) ?

[Snorked]

The F1 Round 8 France GP was visited by Mr. Yasuaki Asaki, who has led the development of the F1 power unit as the center director of HRD Sakura since January of 2018. We asked Mr. Asaki, the director of the company, about the cooperative relationship with the aviation engine research and development department.

How did HRD Sakura get to work with other departments?

Mr. Yasuaki Asaki, President (hereinafter referred to as Mr. Asaki): When I was transferred to HRD Sakura in the summer of 2017, Mr. Noriyuki Matsumoto, President of Honda R & D, has already retired With a focus on “F1 from now on, we will unite our intentions by bringing together the necessary human resources and knowledge from not only the hundreds of members of HRD Sakura but also all the research institutes of Honda.” Yes. I think that Toyoji Tanabe (F1 Technical Director) came to HRD Sakura as part of that.

―― Why did you choose the aeroengine research and development department?


Asaki, Director: Why? At that time, we suffered from the reliability of MGU-H (Motor Generator Unit-Heat: what converts engine heat into electrical energy and turns it into engine power) The department had a close technical knowledge.

　The aviation engine research and development department is located in Wako City, Saitama Prefecture, but I honestly reported the current situation and asked for help. Jet engines also have turbos, shafts and bearings, and they are technically very close.

――To make the former Honda power unit compact, the turbo was in the V-bank angle, but from 2017 it was taken out and the shaft became longer due to the separation of the compressor and the turbine It's time.


Asaki, Chief: The long shaft was suffering from resonance to turn at 100,000 revolutions. So, in January 2018, when I led the development of the F1's power unit as the center director, I explained it to the aeroengine research and development department and had it make a prototype, I solved it in one shot.

　I wanted to make it in time for the 2018 Opener, but it was released in time for the second race, the Bahrain Grand Prix. (Due to trouble with Pierre Guthrie's MGU-H in the opening round, he retired, but that MGU-H was an existing one that had no knowledge of the aeroengine research and development department.)

Honda's turbocharger is jointly developed with IHI. Is the finding of the aeroengine research and development department this time different from that?

Mr. Yasuaki Asaki, Director General (hereinafter, Mr. Asaki, Director) IHI is jointly developing the aerodynamic design part, which is the shape of the turbo itself (the turbine fan and spiral shape) and the compressor. Other motors, shafts and bearings are developed by Honda.

　The part that the aeroengine research and development department has supported is the part that should be developed by Honda, so IHI and IHI will continue to develop jointly as before.

--- What were the findings of the aeroengine research and development department, for example?

Asaki, Director: It is impossible for commercial vehicles to use such a long shaft with such high rotation, but the aero engine is originally used at high rotation and high temperature, but it is related to human life, so it is overwhelming Reliability is required. As we are developing in such an environment, we have knowledge about that part, and the simulation technology is also extremely accurate.

　In addition to the aero engine research and development department, we bring knowledge in various parts and are fighting F1 at All Honda, but it will be announced when it is time to talk about it somewhere.

Has there been any backlash from HRD Sakura staff for getting support from other departments?

Asaki, Director: In a good way, engineers have pride. It must not be the other way around. So, if you say that you were not in trouble, and you didn't feel that it was a "chuck" in incorporating the knowledge of other departments, you would be lying.

　When I was transferred to HRD Sakura, Honda was suffering from a power unit with a new concept and was under pressure from McLaren. Even in Honda, it was a hard time that why Honda is doing a Formula 1 and is not only losing money to use its brand image.

　Therefore, I decided to speak the missing part at a regular meeting where the director of the center meets and get help. When I received support, I made a correct answer and suddenly the atmosphere of the staff at HRD Sakura changed.

--- So, the staff of HRD Sakura thank you to the staff of the aero engine research and development department.

Director Asaki: Of course, I am grateful. If MGU-H continues to be broken as it is, I think that I could not contract with Red Bull Racing.

　We received technology and knowledge from the aero engine research and development department this time, but in the future, we will consider using the knowledge acquired in different departments by moving people to gain experience.

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/496304/2

[Bandit1216]

Hi Also thinking out load. Perhaps aerospace jet tech is more experienced with the air moving relative fast before the compressor, but not in all conditions. Sure modern F1 cars have quite some ram air effect, right. It's very complex getting the compressor design right with differing speed to begin with.

[ispano6]

The F1 Round 8 France GP was visited by Mr. Yasuaki Asaki, who has led the development of the F1 power unit as the center director of HRD Sakura since January of 2018. We asked Mr. Asaki, the director of the company, about the cooperative relationship with the aviation engine research and development department.
...
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/496304/2

A great shout out to Wako kenkyujo in Saitama! This place has special meaning to our family since my father in law worked and retired from the office of secret information there. It's important to note Mr. Asaki's involvement as he is the only named member of the skunkworks and the implant at Sakura who changed things around. Another seldom mentioned name but familiar face is Katsuhide Moriyama. He has also been key behind the scenes.

[Hino]

I'd imagine the point of failure isn't the shaft, but the bearings.

I think the shaft reliability also plays a part, designing the the compressor in such a way to keep shaft oscillations minimal.

[HPD]

https://motorsport.tv/embed/8pO0BNih-ho ... autoplay=1

[roon]

They talked for nine minutes and said nothing. All this recent clickbait boils down to: some new aerospace engineers helped with development. Merc are like: "We did something similar seven years ago."

[63l8qrrfy6]

I think the whole jet engine collaboration is another one of those things that the media blew out of proportion.
According to Tanabe it didn't bring a significant improvement:

Q: Tanabe-san, Paul says that you're bringing upgrades as fast as you can and three of your cars run the new spec-3 power unit in France. All four cars are running it here. Did it perform at Paul Ricard as you expected?
Toyoharu Tanabe: Basically yes. We could see some improvement in the data when we ran the lastest spec at the track. And then, we compared to the dyno data and we see improvement trackside as well. But, on the other hand, the improvement is not significant, so as I mentioned before, when we introduced spec-3, there was a reliability and then a performance improvement - but the performance is not huge, which means we still keep pushing to perform well.

Q: You talk about pushing to perform well. It's quite early in the season to have introduced your third upgrade. Will there be another new spec this season and, if that's the case, can you tell us when that might be?
TT: Yes, so as you are thinking, just before halfway in the season, we already apply third PU and we are planning to introduce another spec sometime this season - but I don't tell you exactly when and how much improvement we will have. We will announce later.

Q: You've said development of this spec-3 involved working closely with Honda's jet division. Can you just tell us how that worked?
TT: So, we have a Honda R&D, so the one division is Honda Sakura R&D which takes care of the Formula One racing project. Then we have a big technical centre including many types of technology. The we use that resource and collaborate very closely. Not only jet engines but also other parts. As a result, we introduce at the last race the new turbocharger using... from the collaboration between Honda Racing technology and jet engine technology. So, we tried to make performance better, not only from the small Racing group but also the all the resources of Honda R&D.

[GhostF1]

I think the whole jet engine collaboration is another one of those things that the media blew out of proportion.
According to Tanabe it didn't bring a significant improvement:

Q: Tanabe-san, Paul says that you're bringing upgrades as fast as you can and three of your cars run the new spec-3 power unit in France. All four cars are running it here. Did it perform at Paul Ricard as you expected?
Toyoharu Tanabe: Basically yes. We could see some improvement in the data when we ran the lastest spec at the track. And then, we compared to the dyno data and we see improvement trackside as well. But, on the other hand, the improvement is not significant, so as I mentioned before, when we introduced spec-3, there was a reliability and then a performance improvement - but the performance is not huge, which means we still keep pushing to perform well.

Q: You talk about pushing to perform well. It's quite early in the season to have introduced your third upgrade. Will there be another new spec this season and, if that's the case, can you tell us when that might be?
TT: Yes, so as you are thinking, just before halfway in the season, we already apply third PU and we are planning to introduce another spec sometime this season - but I don't tell you exactly when and how much improvement we will have. We will announce later.

Q: You've said development of this spec-3 involved working closely with Honda's jet division. Can you just tell us how that worked?
TT: So, we have a Honda R&D, so the one division is Honda Sakura R&D which takes care of the Formula One racing project. Then we have a big technical centre including many types of technology. The we use that resource and collaborate very closely. Not only jet engines but also other parts. As a result, we introduce at the last race the new turbocharger using... from the collaboration between Honda Racing technology and jet engine technology. So, we tried to make performance better, not only from the small Racing group but also the all the resources of Honda R&D.

Peak performance improvement, marginal, Honda has maintained this position from the start but they made a much louder noise about the whole PU becoming much more energy efficient with this upgrade.

[trinidefender]

From everything that I can see the main improvement was reliability with the MGU-H. This might be one of the key factors allowing Honda to run it harder without reliability problems that seemed to plague them before.

[PlatinumZealot]

That's nothing new it's something that's been done for decades, it's been looked at before for turbocharger turbines in motorsport before as well.

Not really needed for small radial turbines where you have sufficient support from the back disk.

Dove tailed axial turbinw blades are indeed a common application.

Never in the form of this type of application or pressures. So characteristic of Japanese technology (and attention to material detail and quality) and disappointed to hear the "over engineered" response to it. Perhaps it is over-engineered to some other's reliability and durability standards, but not this Honda's! Good to see Honda pushing the envelope like they did during the Golden Era. They will need this durability and piece of mind to utilize this next stage of development.

Rolls royce been doing it for years.

[GhostF1]

Max saying Honda have brought them even more power this weekend and he was able to match Mercedes on the straights and he thinks he'll be stronger again during the race.

All signs point to a good race! Let's hope this is the one we've been waiting for!!!

[godlameroso]

The whole package keeps improving, and it always takes a few races worth of learning to gauge exactly how hard or for how long you can push the power unit. Near the end of the race, I heard Max's engineer on the radio telling him to use a setting for extra power until the end of the race. His pace markedly improved on that engine mode.