[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[ispano6]

I agree with you zibby. I have been paying close attention to every on track session this season, ok, sometimes my iPad distracts me, but indeed I have seen no smoke pufs from Merc engines in Silverstone anymore. Not one. That must be of some significance.

I am also one of those. Sudden improvement, what’s up, smoke even, mmmhhhh. Kind of guys. Can’t help it.

Also, in reply to Revs84 post above, albons engineer seems to think he will qualify much higher up in Spain, you can hear him say it in the race audio track posted above.

Puffs of smoke may have been due to many things, perhaps they made it less obvious or they don't need to use it at sea level instead of high altitude like Austria and Hungary. And why no smoke at Silverstone and was there also a noticeable difference in grunt? Silverstone doesn't have many low speed corner exit like we saw with Hungary.

Wolff admitted that hot temperatures had played a big part in Mercedes’ first defeat of 2020. And with more of those forecast for the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya in a week’s time, the Austrian said his team would be working hard to apply learnings from Silverstone in Spain.

“I think we had indications in the past that our relative gap was not as large to our competitors when it was hot,” he said. “It comes down to the fact that we have a car with high downforce, and obviously when conditions change, and parameters change like temperatures going up, compounds getting softer, pressures going up, we have to acknowledge that the Red Bull is a pretty fast car – and that's what we have seen today.

And Marko is confident that the car is now in a place where it can progress development. Asaki made it a point to make the Honda PU more competitive at sea level and Tanabe used Silverstone1 to better understand how to use it for Silverstone2. The first PU was apparently spent and while it was used carefully it was run hard so Tanabe felt fresh PUs were warranted. While he said it was the same spec with no particular advantage I am curious as to what was allowed to change for reliability purposes within a given spec. Asaki did say they can squeeze more power as well and perhaps that is altitude and air density dependent too.

Edit: no I'm not seeing ghosts or making baseless accusations to the three who downvoted. SEE THE 2021 BAN.

[etusch]

I'm being sincere. There were puffs of smoke coming from the Merc PUs in the opening rounds, but I cannot remember seeing a single Merc PU smoking in any of the sessions at either of the Silverstone races.

It sticks out to me because di Resta and other members of the Sky crew kept pointing out how they didn't notice that behavior anymore. Do you have photographs or footage showing otherwise?

Irrespective of whether it continued to happen, I'm disappointed that some automatically cast some kind of sinister association on the behavior, when there are just as many benign causes for it.

Also, I think we're having a failure to communicate. I'm trying to keep this fun and lighthearted. "Save it" is what RIC told his team after RB botched his pit stop in Monaco. Hence, "Save it" if you're going to claim like Red Bull doesn't push the rules envelope, too. And "Save it" again if you think it's not happening this year.

I was genuinely happy to see RB win this weekend. It's much more satisfying to have a rival challenging Merc's performance.

It was also entertaining to see the narrative from a few folks go from "Merc are dominating - they must be cheating" to "Merc aren't that dominant, RB are going to challenge for the championship this year!"

do you think that they have made changes on the pu to prevent that puff? Did they do.that changes on first pu or it is changed with new spec ?

[zibby43]

I'm being sincere. There were puffs of smoke coming from the Merc PUs in the opening rounds, but I cannot remember seeing a single Merc PU smoking in any of the sessions at either of the Silverstone races.

It sticks out to me because di Resta and other members of the Sky crew kept pointing out how they didn't notice that behavior anymore. Do you have photographs or footage showing otherwise?

Irrespective of whether it continued to happen, I'm disappointed that some automatically cast some kind of sinister association on the behavior, when there are just as many benign causes for it.

Also, I think we're having a failure to communicate. I'm trying to keep this fun and lighthearted. "Save it" is what RIC told his team after RB botched his pit stop in Monaco. Hence, "Save it" if you're going to claim like Red Bull doesn't push the rules envelope, too. And "Save it" again if you think it's not happening this year.

I was genuinely happy to see RB win this weekend. It's much more satisfying to have a rival challenging Merc's performance.

It was also entertaining to see the narrative from a few folks go from "Merc are dominating - they must be cheating" to "Merc aren't that dominant, RB are going to challenge for the championship this year!"

do you think that they have made changes on the pu to prevent that puff? Did they do.that changes on first pu or it is changed with new spec ?

Good question. No, I don't think there were any changes. Merc have been using the same PU so far. Hamilton received an improved MGU-K at Silverstone 1, whereas Bottas and the other Merc PUs received the improved MGU-K at Silverstone 2.

I think the puffs of smoke were the result of oil overfills. In the sessions they were present, they were only happening in certain types of corners, early in sessions, in the exact circumstances in which an overfill can produce visible puffs of smoke.

The extent to which these puffs of smoke were sensationalized astounded me. Just like when Ferrari's PU was smoking in '18 in the pitlane. That was likely the result of overfills + the crankcase breather tube (which exits near the crash structure) working as intended.

[Sieper]

indeed, very interesting, also the points by ispano6. let's see.

The smoke was indeed usually at race start, first laps when accelerating max out of slow corners. Practice sessions they might refill at any time, so harder to say anything about that. If it indeed was a case of simply overflow I think it likely they wanted to squeeze as much in as possible, not waste a single drop. There is still some allowance (above what an engine really needs). 0.1 per 100k would suffice, but it is still 3 times that. Still, the smoke is new to 2020. All Mercedes drivers also switch off the high PU Modes (for fear of knock destoying the engine) immediately at finish line crossing. Hand on dial. Waste not a second. So Merc is really keen on using the resources to the last percent. So that could indeed explain the oil overfilling (maybe)? Still such high tech, and then too much oil. The fact that Toto said he didn't know, instead of giving an explanation was also suspect (to me that is)

[Revs84]

Interview with Christian Horner

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... an-horner/

Helmut Marko complained that Honda was still too conservative when it came to running the engine. Is there anything else coming?

Horns: We introduced our second engine this weekend. Honda runs the engines more aggressively. But you have to use that strategically. There's no point in using sharper modes if you're ten seconds behind the leader. You have to use the most powerful settings at the right time.

The rules limit Honda. Actually, you can only ensure reliability with updates. Or does that allow you to call up more power?

Horner: I hope that we can ride higher modes for a longer period of time.

There will be new rules for the subfloor in 2021, which will make sealing the diffuser even harder. Red Bull drives with high employment. Is this concept nearing its end?

Horner: I think the opposite is happening. When I look at the Mercedes: Its rear ground clearance increases from year to year. They're coming more our way. The difference between the two cars is only about 20 millimeters. To me it looks like they are converging to a solution with more ground clearance. We must certainly examine the effects of this rule change carefully. I am sure that we will draw the right conclusions.

So you're not currently considering changing your philosophy?

Horner: No.

[Revs84]

I agree with you zibby. I have been paying close attention to every on track session this season, ok, sometimes my iPad distracts me, but indeed I have seen no smoke pufs from Merc engines in Silverstone anymore. Not one. That must be of some significance.

I am also one of those. Sudden improvement, what’s up, smoke even, mmmhhhh. Kind of guys. Can’t help it.

Also, in reply to Revs84 post above, albons engineer seems to think he will qualify much higher up in Spain, you can hear him say it in the race audio track posted above.

Puffs of smoke may have been due to many things, perhaps they made it less obvious or they don't need to use it at sea level instead of high altitude like Austria and Hungary. And why no smoke at Silverstone and was there also a noticeable difference in grunt? Silverstone doesn't have many low speed corner exit like we saw with Hungary.

Wolff admitted that hot temperatures had played a big part in Mercedes’ first defeat of 2020. And with more of those forecast for the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya in a week’s time, the Austrian said his team would be working hard to apply learnings from Silverstone in Spain.

“I think we had indications in the past that our relative gap was not as large to our competitors when it was hot,” he said. “It comes down to the fact that we have a car with high downforce, and obviously when conditions change, and parameters change like temperatures going up, compounds getting softer, pressures going up, we have to acknowledge that the Red Bull is a pretty fast car – and that's what we have seen today.

And Marko is confident that the car is now in a place where it can progress development. Asaki made it a point to make the Honda PU more competitive at sea level and Tanabe used Silverstone1 to better understand how to use it for Silverstone2. The first PU was apparently spent and while it was used carefully it was run hard so Tanabe felt fresh PUs were warranted. While he said it was the same spec with no particular advantage I am curious as to what was allowed to change for reliability purposes within a given spec. Asaki did say they can squeeze more power as well and perhaps that is altitude and air density dependent too.

It would be quite strange if the first PU is really spent after just doing 4 race weekends - one of which Verstappen retired after 11 laps.

Originally, for this year, Honda planned to avoid incurring any penalties since they were confident that they've reached enough power to reliability ratio. I would think they accounted for using higher modes at some points during the race.

So what changed suddenly? They underestimated the competition and had to use more aggressive modes for longer? They are trying to make up for the chassis deficit?

Do you have a link for this?

[Sieper]

I just received confirmation from another race watcher he did in fact spot the Mercedes oil puffs briefly in the first lap. A rewatch by myself might Be in order.

[ispano6]

I agree with you zibby. I have been paying close attention to every on track session this season, ok, sometimes my iPad distracts me, but indeed I have seen no smoke pufs from Merc engines in Silverstone anymore. Not one. That must be of some significance.

I am also one of those. Sudden improvement, what’s up, smoke even, mmmhhhh. Kind of guys. Can’t help it.

Also, in reply to Revs84 post above, albons engineer seems to think he will qualify much higher up in Spain, you can hear him say it in the race audio track posted above.

Puffs of smoke may have been due to many things, perhaps they made it less obvious or they don't need to use it at sea level instead of high altitude like Austria and Hungary. And why no smoke at Silverstone and was there also a noticeable difference in grunt? Silverstone doesn't have many low speed corner exit like we saw with Hungary.

Wolff admitted that hot temperatures had played a big part in Mercedes’ first defeat of 2020. And with more of those forecast for the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya in a week’s time, the Austrian said his team would be working hard to apply learnings from Silverstone in Spain.

“I think we had indications in the past that our relative gap was not as large to our competitors when it was hot,” he said. “It comes down to the fact that we have a car with high downforce, and obviously when conditions change, and parameters change like temperatures going up, compounds getting softer, pressures going up, we have to acknowledge that the Red Bull is a pretty fast car – and that's what we have seen today.

And Marko is confident that the car is now in a place where it can progress development. Asaki made it a point to make the Honda PU more competitive at sea level and Tanabe used Silverstone1 to better understand how to use it for Silverstone2. The first PU was apparently spent and while it was used carefully it was run hard so Tanabe felt fresh PUs were warranted. While he said it was the same spec with no particular advantage I am curious as to what was allowed to change for reliability purposes within a given spec. Asaki did say they can squeeze more power as well and perhaps that is altitude and air density dependent too.

It would be quite strange if the first PU is really spent after just doing 4 race weekends - one of which Verstappen retired after 11 laps.

Originally, for this year, Honda planned to avoid incurring any penalties since they were confident that they've reached enough power to reliability ratio. I would think they accounted for using higher modes at some points during the race.

So what changed suddenly? They underestimated the competition and had to use more aggressive modes for longer? They are trying to make up for the chassis deficit?

Do you have a link for this?

They thought they were closer, but Mercedes found more top end performance than Honda. Asaki acknowledged the 0.5sec gap and likely called for the power modes to be used more often or used more strategically. I posted the two pages of an Asaki interview in the General Honda forum but there is no digital or text translation. You will need to read it or get someone to translate it.

[Big Tea]

I keep hearing 'puff of smoke = overfill' . Not just in this case but Merc Ferrari etc
I am having trouble accepting a F1 team can overfill a F1 car. They fill the fuel tank to exactly the limit or they are in trouble, they do the same with brake and other fluids, and the critical level they overfill? No, don't buy it sorry.

[Juzh]

I watched both full onboard races from both Verstappen and Albon and it was clear Albon was doing zero tyre management, while Verstappen was doing probably faaaar too much with hindsight. Like seriously, Verstappen was doing massive lifts into turn 1 from the get go and never even touched kerbs in copse and following corners, albon meanwhile flat trough T1 every singe lap, flat trough copse couple of times, flat trough maggots entire second half of the race and so on.

Bottom line, Verstappen could put an extra 10s on mercs easily but decided not to. He only really pushed a lap here and there and even that wasn't at 100%. Judging by albon's pace towards the end of stints tyres on RB could easily be pushed lap after lap and not be too stressed, but they decided to play it safe with Max.

[rogazilla]

Bottom line, Verstappen could put an extra 10s on mercs easily but decided not to. He only really pushed a lap here and there and even that wasn't at 100%. Judging by albon's pace towards the end of stints tyres on RB could easily be pushed lap after lap and not be too stressed, but they decided to play it safe with Max.

I think it make sense to save some tires as Ham was either going to do ride his Hard to the end but if he pit one more time, you want to have some tires left to at least put up a fight to the brand new set. Ham did pit with just 10 laps to go. I think it is the right strategy.

The case of Album, while he's starting position compromises his chance but it is in term a blessing for him to run full out the whole race to get a real data on these tires!

[Wouter]

Lets hope this is true.

FIA plans ban on ‘qualifying mode’ engine settings in 2021

12th August 2020, 13:02 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine

The FIA intends to ban the high-performance ‘qualifying mode’ engine settings developed by Mercedes and other engine manufacturers, RaceFans has learned.

RaceFans understands the FIA’s intention to outlaw such modes were outlined in a letter sent to teams yesterday by the governing body’s secretary general for sport Peter Bayer.

In the letter, confirmed by several sources, the FIA described its intention to clarify the use of modes for the 2021 F1 season by stipulating that the performance settings used by teams in qualifying must be the same as those used in the race. The requirement could be enforced using the existing parc ferme regulations which restrict set-up changes between the two sessions.

Max Verstappen believes part of Red Bull’s current performance deficit to Mercedes in qualifying is due to the differences in their engine modes.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/12/fia ... s-in-2021/

[Big Tea]

Lets hope this is true.

FIA plans ban on ‘qualifying mode’ engine settings in 2021

12th August 2020, 13:02 | Written by Dieter Rencken and Keith Collantine

The FIA intends to ban the high-performance ‘qualifying mode’ engine settings developed by Mercedes and other engine manufacturers, RaceFans has learned.

RaceFans understands the FIA’s intention to outlaw such modes were outlined in a letter sent to teams yesterday by the governing body’s secretary general for sport Peter Bayer.

In the letter, confirmed by several sources, the FIA described its intention to clarify the use of modes for the 2021 F1 season by stipulating that the performance settings used by teams in qualifying must be the same as those used in the race. The requirement could be enforced using the existing parc ferme regulations which restrict set-up changes between the two sessions.

Max Verstappen believes part of Red Bull’s current performance deficit to Mercedes in qualifying is due to the differences in their engine modes.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/12/fia ... s-in-2021/

I can not see how that would work. All they would need to do is incorporate the 'mode' into a normal race strat and just not let the driver use it without permission.

In fact, I suspect the same mode is available to a driver during the race anyway. Example Lando being told to go to a particular 'strat' in the last lap of a race when he needed 'ballsout mode'

[1158]

How's that going to work though? If Q mode is just a setting change on the steering wheel does that then mean no changes to engine modes are allowed at all during the race? Whatever mode you qualify in is what you have to race in? Nothing stops teams from running Q mode in the race, in fact I believe teams do opt to use that mode at times (sparingly) in the race.

Seems like the most the FIA could do is mandate whatever mode you set your fastest lap on must be the mode you begin the race with. After a lap then just switch modes.

[ispano6]

Perhaps Mercedes now needs to be coy about it since it was so obvious in previous weekends.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _mercedes/