Mercedes GP W02

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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bot6 wrote:I think the main reason the two drivers were using the old wing was that both seem to prefer it to the new one. Schumi, for one, said as much.




Right. He kicked the new wing off saying something about how it has changed the balance, and then he ran his 1.21.268 lap on the old wing.

By changing the balance, can this possibly mean the front wing is creating too much downforce throwing off the back end feel or lack of downforce at the rear end? Or is it not specific to one end of the car? As in, the front wing changes, and literally everything on the car can change a little.

bot6
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Could be one or both of the above.

Could also be that they did a lot of setup work before getting the new FW. If the new FW changed the balance of the car, all that setup work would have to be redone. Since they only had a limited amount of running in the dry left, they might have elected to finish their program and do their quali sims with the old FW, and will test the new one more thoroughly in Oz.

They might also end up preferring one or the other FW depending on the track. The old one might suit Barcelona better. Brawn said there are actually three different wings being evaluated at the moment, so it could simply be used by Merc as an extra setup parameter.

Anyone know if Rosberg had the new FW on during is quali sim on Friday afternoon?

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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bot6 wrote:Could be one or both of the above.

Could also be that they did a lot of setup work before getting the new FW. If the new FW changed the balance of the car, all that setup work would have to be redone. Since they only had a limited amount of running in the dry left, they might have elected to finish their program and do their quali sims with the old FW, and will test the new one more thoroughly in Oz.

They might also end up preferring one or the other FW depending on the track. The old one might suit Barcelona better. Brawn said there are actually three different wings being evaluated at the moment, so it could simply be used by Merc as an extra setup parameter.

Anyone know if Rosberg had the new FW on during is quali sim on Friday afternoon?



Don't know about Nico, but your setup contention regarding the new FW makes perfect sense. They get the car set just right with the previous FW only to have the car buggered up with the new FW albeit in the long run the newer unit may be a tenth better, but again; after a day of noodling with the car.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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timbo wrote:
Diesel wrote:Your probably thinking back to Red Bull at Silverstone when Vettel broke his new wing, they only had the one on Webber's car so they swapped it. This sort of thing only happens mid-season as part of the development race, parts get shipped to races as soon as they are built, this can literally be Thursday night before FP1.
Problem is, they are manufactured in England and the race is in Australia. Not as easy shipping. Besides, they only had all the parts @ Thursday or even Friday. They are fresh out of production with very little overhead.
Yes the RB wings were probably taken to the track by one of the engineers in the boot of his car.

BUT, The Oz GP is on the 27th, that's just under 2 weeks away... I'm pretty sure they can get a good half dozen wings out there by then if they needed to.

ESPImperium
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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luca wrote:According to a user on the AutoSport Forum, Norbert Haug was in a live chat on bilde.de yesterday and he said that they will bring something new for almost every race and they want to gain at least a tenth every race weekend with new developments.

Source: http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?s ... try4892706
Means he is happy effectivly standing still. Unless he brings 0.3s on average to each race, the car will not turn arround and Mercedes will be constntly fighting the midfeild for the lesser points.

However i think that the Renault 2010 model will be used extensivly in 2011 where every team will being something new for each race, as renault did indeed put 2.0s on their car in 2010, if all teams do the same it will be the same routine all season, but i also think we will go to each track with the Pirellis and we simply wont know who is fastest, and with planned updates for each team penned in for diffrent races, you may be P1 one GP, but P4 or P5 at the next due to other teams out developing for a GP.

I think the cars will be closer together this year, but still wont be as close as the 2008 season when the cars were covered by about 1.4s to 1.7ss on average per race. I think from P1 to P20 it will be arround 2.1s to 2.4s a lap on average.

bot6
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I don't quite get how "new developments at every race" means standing still...

And from the last test, it seems the car is already above the midfield. Whether it's on par with Red Bull and Ferrari is another story...

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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
... It will be more than just cope and graft, and there is a very big IF here that mercedes are front runners. I naturally hope they are but no way can any one say for certain the w02 is a winner just yet.
It`s a kind of déjà-vu 2009 season with BGP001, when at the first and last winter test for them they just pulverized the opposition, both in the test and first race, don`t you think? I said so because there are too many similarities back from 2 years ago, one of them is the fact that they kept the updates till the very end ...
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segedunum
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I still don't get where people are getting the notion that this car is now miraculously sniffing around behind Red Bull and Ferrari based on a single morning's worth of qualifying laps in testing.

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atanatizante
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ESPImperium wrote:
... Unless he brings 0.3s on average to each race, the car will not turn around and Mercedes will be constantly fighting the midfield for the lesser points.
So, if it would be 20 races this year, then they will gain 6 seconds per season? I think it`s a little bit to much, don`t you think?
Maybe a tenth per race would rather be relevant, as Mr. Haug was saying ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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segedunum wrote:I still don't get where people are getting the notion that this car is now miraculously sniffing around behind Red Bull and Ferrari based on a single morning's worth of qualifying laps in testing.

Well you're right there. I'm not expecting anything utterly remarkable but I'm not expecting to be disappointed either. I guess it's a good thing that the best drivers on the grid are stating they are impressed, but it's just words and practice ya know. Brawn came through with what they their claims re the updates and we will just have to see how the year plays out. So far so good though.

bot6
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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segedunum wrote:I still don't get where people are getting the notion that this car is now miraculously sniffing around behind Red Bull and Ferrari based on a single morning's worth of qualifying laps in testing.
Actually, four days of testing, in which they set the top time twice, without using the supersoft tyre.

And to me it's nothing miraculous. I believe version 1 of the car was behind Ferrari, Red Bull and Renault, maybe on par with Williams.

So expecting to have leapfrogged one, maybe two other teams with the extent of the upgrades (especially the new diffuser and new exhaust) should not be seen as completely bonkers.

tjaeger
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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atanatizante wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
... It will be more than just cope and graft, and there is a very big IF here that mercedes are front runners. I naturally hope they are but no way can any one say for certain the w02 is a winner just yet.
It`s a kind of déjà-vu 2009 season with BGP001, when at the first and last winter test for them they just pulverized the opposition, both in the test and first race, don`t you think? I said so because there are too many similarities back from 2 years ago, one of them is the fact that they kept the updates till the very end ...

I would not bet the house on it yet, mate. I think 2009 was a lot different than this case....think Red Bull & Ferrari in particular will be right there.
You cannot engineer out stupidity.

tjaeger
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Ferraripilot wrote:
bot6 wrote:Could be one or both of the above.

Could also be that they did a lot of setup work before getting the new FW. If the new FW changed the balance of the car, all that setup work would have to be redone. Since they only had a limited amount of running in the dry left, they might have elected to finish their program and do their quali sims with the old FW, and will test the new one more thoroughly in Oz.

They might also end up preferring one or the other FW depending on the track. The old one might suit Barcelona better. Brawn said there are actually three different wings being evaluated at the moment, so it could simply be used by Merc as an extra setup parameter.

Anyone know if Rosberg had the new FW on during is quali sim on Friday afternoon?



Don't know about Nico, but your setup contention regarding the new FW makes perfect sense. They get the car set just right with the previous FW only to have the car buggered up with the new FW albeit in the long run the newer unit may be a tenth better, but again; after a day of noodling with the car.
I think I fully agree, parts came little late, program running short and the setup was not quite 100% tuned up for the new wing, which probably is better. All upgrades they brought made sense and brought speed and so will the new wing probably do. The concern of course is next time they are able to run it is Australia practice, and I don't think it would be ideal to fine tune the setup to a new wing before the first race.
Maybe they should have spend more time wisely setting up the setup for the new wing and have the setup, knowledge and data in the bag.
You cannot engineer out stupidity.

The FOZ
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Diesel wrote:Yes the RB wings were probably taken to the track by one of the engineers in the boot of his car.

BUT, The Oz GP is on the 27th, that's just under 2 weeks away... I'm pretty sure they can get a good half dozen wings out there by then if they needed to.
Yes-no...having only tested this wing on one car, to what appears to be mixed results, it doesn't make a lot of sense to devote a lot of resources to producing many of these units.

As this wing is essentially an unproven prototype, Merc will likely have produced only one set of tools and fixtures for it's components - only one of a given component can therefore be produced at a time, figure 2-3 days total process time before an individual tool is freed up and prepped to go again. But to maximize autoclave usage, they'd want to fit as many components in as possible in a single go - so before a batch starts, all the parts have to be laid up first - total start laying up to done cooking would be 3-4 days per batch, in my estimate.

If they're doing secondary bonding to join parts together, that's another day or two of cycle time.

These parts all need to go through the quality checks - a single rejected part will throw off the balance of components, and need to be replaced.

Assuming all goes well, the part needs to be tested in a load frame, and it's dimensions checked and rechecked. Pity if the team were slapped with a penalty because a dimension was off, or the car were unbalanced by a wonky wing.

THEN, the thing needs to be painted and stickered.

Then it has to be shipped to Australia.

I'd say 3 is the realistic max to hope for between now and then.

Leon
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I think that in Melbourn will be further updates on the car.
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