2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

[Morteza]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1 ... 6601927683

[djos]

The biggest issue with flexi wings was shown by Vettel's Red Bull throwing itself into Button's car when the load was changing dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nSfH1oa3mU

That was just another example of Vettel not having racecraft that's in the same league as the other top drivers, we saw it again in 2018 where he made all sorts of stupid mistakes while trying to race his way to the front.

[Zynerji]

What reasons do watch F1 for then?

Man vs. Nature

Artificial constraints make my teeth itch.

Don’t know what version of F1 you’ve been watching recently but the F1 I’ve been watching the whole of my adult life could hardly be described with any accuracy man vs nature.

The whole of the F1 rule book is a catalogue of artificial constraints, that’s what makes F1 rather than a catalogue of different artificial constraints the F2 formula.

I watch for the real world application of physics bending engineering. Aero and engine efficiencies that the world has never before seen, power to weight ratios that were science fiction just 40 years ago, and the outrageous cornering g-forces that they can sustain.

The rules should be safety only (halo, impact structures, roll bars, wheel tethers, etc.), require information sharing between teams and add a minimum spending budget to build the data pool exponentially with several teams contributing that all teams can access for future learning and designs.

Problems like outwash ruining racing is nothing more than an after effect of the front wing rules. I'm sure the teams would rather open aero to concentrate on efficiency so they can carry less fuel (weight), but they are stuck with the over prescriptive formula and that leads to dirty solutions to get similar effect.

I watch to see the minds of brilliant men and women accomplishing what most would deem impossible with a burning passion that only competition can ignite.

[mzso]

I'm not sure less drag and more dirty air equates... Obviously there are nuances but broadly speaking the lower the total drag the smaller the effect of the wake will be (Cpo deficit in the wake reduces with lower drag).

WEC are introducing a minimum frontal area, maximum downforce, maximum efficiency, and minimum drag in their 2020 rules. A similar rule in F1 could be quite effective.

I seem to remember that they do much of this vortex generation to guide the air around the wheels and decrease drag. And vortices decrease downforce for the following car so it counts as dirty air.

How are they planning on enforcing all that?
Also, maximum efficiency? (of what?) Isn't that a tad insane?

Every regulation made adds cost by forcing the teams to "study" the regulation, and find its limits. Thus, no matter how "competent" the regulators, their package is always the most expensive part of F1.

Nonsense. There's an initial peak in cost because they need a brand new design. But after things settle it depends on the formula how much needs to be spent to be competent.

[Just_a_fan]

Every regulation made adds cost by forcing the teams to "study" the regulation, and find its limits. Thus, no matter how "competent" the regulators, their package is always the most expensive part of F1.

Nonsense. There's an initial peak in cost because they need a brand new design. But after things settle it depends on the formula how much needs to be spent to be competent.

Wrong. The initial cost is a big lump for big gains. Everyone does that and it's much the same for everyone. After that, the cost increases exponentially as the teams spend ever more money to find smaller and smaller gains.

[mzso]

Every regulation made adds cost by forcing the teams to "study" the regulation, and find its limits. Thus, no matter how "competent" the regulators, their package is always the most expensive part of F1.

Nonsense. There's an initial peak in cost because they need a brand new design. But after things settle it depends on the formula how much needs to be spent to be competent.

Wrong. The initial cost is a big lump for big gains. Everyone does that and it's much the same for everyone. After that, the cost increases exponentially as the teams spend ever more money to find smaller and smaller gains.

Only if there's meaningful return... Which there is in this eras horrid aero.

[turbof1]

Euhm, no...

Teams have a fixed budget. For big regulation changes these budgets can temporarily increase, but it will go back to the normal budget afterwards. There are deminishing returns under stable regulations. The end result is they will find less and less time to claw back with a roughly equal budget.

[mzso]

Euhm, no...

Teams have a fixed budget. For big regulation changes these budgets can temporarily increase, but it will go back to the normal budget afterwards. There are deminishing returns under stable regulations. The end result is they will find less and less time to claw back with a roughly equal budget.

Well, those budgets would quickly get fixed at a lower point when throwing more money at development would only bring negligible returns.

[mzso]

The biggest issue with flexi wings was shown by Vettel's Red Bull throwing itself into Button's car when the load was changing dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nSfH1oa3mU

That was just another example of Vettel not having racecraft that's in the same league as the other top drivers, we saw it again in 2018 where he made all sorts of stupid mistakes while trying to race his way to the front.

I remember this moment as the one where I got disillusioned by Vettel for good. And he didn't do anything since then to change my perception of him.

[turbof1]

Euhm, no...

Teams have a fixed budget. For big regulation changes these budgets can temporarily increase, but it will go back to the normal budget afterwards. There are deminishing returns under stable regulations. The end result is they will find less and less time to claw back with a roughly equal budget.

Well, those budgets would quickly get fixed at a lower point when throwing more money at development would only bring negligible returns.

No they wouldn't. What you call negligible would still be significant for a competitor. Never underestimate the extreme competition in F1.

[Just_a_fan]

Euhm, no...

Teams have a fixed budget. For big regulation changes these budgets can temporarily increase, but it will go back to the normal budget afterwards. There are deminishing returns under stable regulations. The end result is they will find less and less time to claw back with a roughly equal budget.

Well, those budgets would quickly get fixed at a lower point when throwing more money at development would only bring negligible returns.

It seems you don't understand F1, or even motor racing in general. If there is money available then it will be spent on finding performance. The teams will spend $hundreds of thousands or $millions to find a tenth of a second. And they'll do that so long as the money is there. Do you really think the $300-$400million a year the teams spend is on the base car and that's it? A large percentage of that money is spent on developing the car through the season, finding a tenth here, half a tenth there. That's the reality of it.

The only way to stop teams spending endless money on ever smaller gains is to limit the amount they have to spend - a budget cap.

[djos]

The biggest issue with flexi wings was shown by Vettel's Red Bull throwing itself into Button's car when the load was changing dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nSfH1oa3mU

That was just another example of Vettel not having racecraft that's in the same league as the other top drivers, we saw it again in 2018 where he made all sorts of stupid mistakes while trying to race his way to the front.

I remember this moment as the one where I got disillusioned by Vettel for good. And he didn't do anything since then to change my perception of him.

Yeah that combined with other stupid own-goals like driving into Webber in Turkey have consitently shown he lacks the ability to judge his overtaking actions as well as drivers Lewis, Max, Fernando and Ricciardo.

[mzso]

Euhm, no...

Teams have a fixed budget. For big regulation changes these budgets can temporarily increase, but it will go back to the normal budget afterwards. There are deminishing returns under stable regulations. The end result is they will find less and less time to claw back with a roughly equal budget.

Well, those budgets would quickly get fixed at a lower point when throwing more money at development would only bring negligible returns.

No they wouldn't. What you call negligible would still be significant for a competitor. Never underestimate the extreme competition in F1.

So? If someone wants to waste money for no gain they can do so. It won't bring them any good. And the poorer teams wont go bankrupt and will be competitive.

It seems you don't understand F1, or even motor racing in general. If there is money available then it will be spent on finding performance. The teams will spend $hundreds of thousands or $millions to find a tenth of a second. And they'll do that so long as the money is there. Do you really think the $300-$400million a year the teams spend is on the base car and that's it? A large percentage of that money is spent on developing the car through the season, finding a tenth here, half a tenth there. That's the reality of it.

You're the one who doesn't understand. If they have all the money available they can waste it to finde a hundredth of a second, just to outperformed by teams with a tenth of a budget. They'll get tired of it soon.
They won't find a tenth with simplified aero and standardized parts. On the rare occasion they do, others will quickly copy it.

The only way to stop teams spending endless money on ever smaller gains is to limit the amount they have to spend - a budget cap.

Hah! Nope. It's a delusion. A budget cap is unenforceable. There are all sorts of ways teams owners or mother corporations could shove money somewhere to get results, then pass on the information to the F1 team.
Mercedes, Mateschitz, Renault etc. could just found a brand new corporation with no legal ties to F1/FIA drown them in money to produce engines, chassis. The teams would buy them for 1 dollar to not increase their budget. And that's that.
Large corporations Like Mercedes/Honda/Renault could simply just hide development teams wherever they want with their worldwide appearance.

[mzso]

Yeah that combined with other stupid own-goals like driving into Webber in Turkey have consitently shown he lacks the ability to judge his overtaking actions as well as drivers Lewis, Max, Fernando and Ricciardo.

Yeah, that was another depth... And if I remember correctly RB blamed Webber who didn't even make a questionable move.

[turbof1]

Ok, this has gone on too long. Let's analyze the topic title:

2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

So this is not about budgets, not about Webber, not about philosophical semantics. This is about
-Regulations
-Aerodynamics
-2017-2020

I can allow discussion about how the current set of regulations generates turbulent airflow and how this can be possibly fixed, provided said discussion happens in a concrete way without philosophical bashing. If you don't like aerodynamics, then save yourself the excertion and just don't post!