Evolution and limit of battery energy density

[AJI]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20 ... aggerated/
Interesting. If battery decisions are based solely on environmental impact it would seem lead acid is still miles ahead...

[Andres125sx]

lead-acid batteries are 99% recyclable, while lithium-ion batteries are recycled at a rate below 5%

This is sensationalistic BS, they´re 99% recyclable but, what´s the rate in the real world. Comparing theory from lead with reality from lithium is as biased as it may be...

[AJI]

lead-acid batteries are 99% recyclable, while lithium-ion batteries are recycled at a rate below 5%

This is sensationalistic BS, they´re 99% recyclable but, what´s the rate in the real world. Comparing theory from lead with reality from lithium is as biased as it may be...

Big lead must be behind it

[mzso]

At first I thought that those cells are a joke, but in those cells Aluminium is converted to Al(OH)3. This is essentially the state of raw Aluminium before the Bayer process but doesn't produce Red Mud. Papers suggest that you need about 70GJ/t to produce pure Aluminium from Al(OH)3 (compared to about 2GJ/t for remelting Al)
This means you need 70MJ/kg = 19kWh/kg to recycle the Aluminium from an Al/Air battery.
This suggests that you have a "recharging" efficiency of probably less than 10% (since such a battery currently stores about 1.3kWh per kg battery). So I don't think that there will be a time where such a battery is viable for daily use, but this doesn't matter for "entertainment" like racing.

Of course it matters. They can't promote themselves, with an extremely wasteful and problematic technology that has no practical use.
Making a battery also doesn't only consist of creating aluminium from a precursor. You need to take apart the old ones and build new ones.

Or recycle... I'm assuming the savings in not bringing a powerstation to every track will offset the battery recycling?

Why would you assume that? Re-manufacturing multiple battery packs seems far more troublesome than hauling some generators. If they're even needed. Some tracks might want to provide proper charging ability for the FE cars in the future, if the don't do it already. Laying some cable or connecting some wires is not something complicated.

Besides it's not about what it costs them, it's about what technologies they promote.

[mzso]

True. Do you say the same about combustion aircrafts? Because they need several orders of magnitude more energy as ICE are not even a half efficient compared to electric motors

Same as any car or truck, except if it´s a real L5 as I stated there´re no controls into the cockpit so it will be difficult to not play by the rules, much more than any car or truck you see daily on the roads

- It's not about what "they" say, it's about reality. The energy cost of flying cars makes them non-viable electric or not.
Electric ones are furthermore not possible because of battery weight.

- Unless the AI is flawed or is hacked to do something disruptive.

The main point IMO is with this new batteries now they're feasible, and that's a huge step forward

These are neither actually new nor do they make anything feasible. Even racing series won't adopt primary batteries.

[mzso]

Agreed. A throw away battery for daily use is ridiculous, even if you get 10,000ks per battery, which they don't, but I'm failing to see the downside in a motorsport application.

If Formula E is trying to be "green", throwing away batteries after a single use is going against the message, wouldn't you say?

Ever heard of recycling? How "green" is shipping a power station to every event?

Greener than rebuilding a battery at great energy and manufacturing cost.
Recycling is not viable for something single use. Even rechargeable Li-ion batteries are not recycled because it's cheaper to mine more lithium (for the time being).

Sure, recharge is the better option if you can do it. However, it seems there isn't enough grid infrastructure at any of the race locations to be able to charge all of the cars..?

This sort of things happen when they don't bother to build the infrastructure.

[AJI]

...This sort of things happen when they don't bother to build the infrastructure.

Just build a super fast charging system at every venue for the world's least popular motorsport class you reckon?
Can I see a cost-benefit analysis before investing please?

[Big Tea]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

[AJI]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

Hmmm, with all respect Big T I think you're waaaaaaayyy off the mark there. There are 24 cars, each with a 54kwh battery that is empty at the end of the race, and that's only 1 race! There is no way all of the support services combined use anywhere near that kind of energy.

[Big Tea]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

Hmmm, with all respect Big T I think you're waaaaaaayyy off the mark there. There are 24 cars, each with a 54kwh battery that is empty at the end of the race, and that's only 1 race! There is no way all of the support services combined use anywhere near that kind of energy.

It is quite a lot if it needs to be fast charged 'at one go' but the garage would have a considerable capacity for all the kit required anyway and there is no need to for a major recharge between qualli and race. I do see what you are saying, but when you consider what power has to be available anyway, would it be more than a couple of supermarket size units extra?


Edit, I mean ofcourse the sort that supermarkets have on standby, not the small ones sold at Lidl

[Andres125sx]

Charging the 24 54kWh batteries in an hour will take 1.3MW without charging loses, or under 200kW to charge overnight (8hours)

Not sure what power needs have a venue like this, but I´ll say they should have the capacity for an overnight charge, when power demands are minimal

[mzso]

...This sort of things happen when they don't bother to build the infrastructure.

Just build a super fast charging system at every venue for the world's least popular motorsport class you reckon?
Can I see a cost-benefit analysis before investing please?

Maybe build a charging station that outside race weekends can be used for passenger car charging...
Since FE races are on city circuits a charging station would have more than enough use.

[mzso]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

As said that's ways off. A whole house might only use 200-300 kWh-s of power a month. A single FE car has a 54 kWh battery.

[Big Tea]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

As said that's ways off. A whole house might only use 200-300 kWh-s of power a month. A single FE car has a 54 kWh battery.

But it does not have to be charged in a single hour
Ok, I agree the number is considerably higher than I plucked out of the air, but is it doable?

[AJI]

When you consider all the other power needs of FE, with the music, hospitality, motorhomes workshops,studio etc,
I think the tiny amount used to charge the cars will not even be worth factoring in. The refrigeration and cooling will use more

As said that's ways off. A whole house might only use 200-300 kWh-s of power a month. A single FE car has a 54 kWh battery.

But it does not have to be charged in a single hour
Ok, I agree the number is considerably higher than I plucked out of the air, but is it doable?

Not without a serious grid connection or bringing a charging station with you...
I mean no offence, but it still amazes me that people think the BEV future is as simple as pluging your car into the wall. I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere and the grid was never designed for such immense loads.