Red Bull RB8 Renault

[cossie]

I contend that the "bridge" - also known as an extremely undercut sidepod - shields the exhaust flow from the air flowing around the sidepods. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to route the exhaust anywhere, given its location, much less to the sides of the diffuser.

In reading the regs for this year , i thought they said you could not redirect the exhaust gas and redirect and collect the exhaust

[bhall]

In reading the regs for this year , i thought they said you could not redirect the exhaust gas and redirect and collect the exhaust

No specific exhaust behavior is prohibited; such a rule would leave too many question marks in regard to possible interpretations. The regulations merely define the allowable dimensions and locations for the exhausts. Those parameters are formulated in such a way as to attempt to prohibit certain functions by disallowing the dimensions and placement known to be required for those functions to be effective. The designer's job is to reclaim as much of the "prohibited" effect as possible given the rules in force. (I hope that makes sense.)

In this case, none of that really matters anymore, because...


(Click to enlarge)

(I hate being wrong.)

[Pierce89]

In reading the regs for this year , i thought they said you could not redirect the exhaust gas and redirect and collect the exhaust

No specific exhaust behavior is prohibited; such a rule would leave too many question marks in regard to possible interpretations. The regulations merely define the allowable dimensions and locations for the exhausts. Those parameters are formulated in such a way as to attempt to prohibit certain functions by disallowing the dimensions and placement known to be required for those functions to be effective. The designer's job is to reclaim as much of the "prohibited" effect as possible given the rules in force. (I hope that makes sense.)

In this case, none of that really matters anymore, because...


(Click to enlarge)

(I hate being wrong.)

ther is a new(right before testing started) technical directive saying the exhaust can't be "reingested"

[bhall]

A technical directive is an altogether different beast. A TD is Charlie Whiting's way of saying something to the effect of, "This is how I read the regulations, and I'm going to use that definition as the basis for every decision I make regarding a component's legality."

[Adrian Newby]

Can we not apply some objectivity here?

What would a sealed diffuser result in? Greater rake? A heat-resistant material used for the diffuser or floor? Etc

We have plenty of pre- and post-exhaust change pictures, and even some video.

There's also form: EBDs were banned except for a 5cm allowed exit in 2011. RB went straight for this 5cm and retained EBD effects. In 2012 exhaust are on top, pointed upwards but still exit into airflow that interacts with the diffuser given the right conditioning.

Sod CFD diagrams, the default Occams razor position is that RB will still be trying to blow the diffuser on their evolution of a double-WC car. Provide data or quotes suggesting their design objectives have changed, or accept that it does what common sense tells you it does.

15 pages of exhaust gas analysis just lets the bloody big 'my toes are a bit chilly' letterbox escape study, as far as I'm concerned. Where's the NCIS enhancement of that pit lane spy shot!?

Well said!

[Pierce89]

That bridge solution itself places a question why they took all the effort for such a change. When I saw it for the first time my thought was they want to swap the streams so that the exhaust gas one goes outside.

flows can't just "switch over" because the free stream velocity increases. Think of airflow ike a river, a flow will continue to come from the same origin and "leave a trail"(more flow coming along). Okay now, these flows try to "switch over", they're going to hit each other and push each other in a new vector. They can't just "switch over".

[Pierce89]

Can we not apply some objectivity here?

What would a sealed diffuser result in? Greater rake? A heat-resistant material used for the diffuser or floor? Etc

We have plenty of pre- and post-exhaust change pictures, and even some video.

There's also form: EBDs were banned except for a 5cm allowed exit in 2011. RB went straight for this 5cm and retained EBD effects. In 2012 exhaust are on top, pointed upwards but still exit into airflow that interacts with the diffuser given the right conditioning.

Sod CFD diagrams, the default Occams razor position is that RB will still be trying to blow the diffuser on their evolution of a double-WC car. Provide data or quotes suggesting their design objectives have changed, or accept that it does what common sense tells you it does.

15 pages of exhaust gas analysis just lets the bloody big 'my toes are a bit chilly' letterbox escape study, as far as I'm concerned. Where's the NCIS enhancement of that pit lane spy shot!?

Well said!

Gotta love Occam's razor(makes life easier to comprehend)!

[Adrian Newby]

The exhaust does point outward: 10 degrees outward (and complies with another one of those regulations things you don't know or care about). The channel then guides it even farther outward.

The exhaust itself is not the same as the exhaust ducting in the sidepod.

Look at it again; and not using that vertical photo that only shows the sidepod cutout/ducting.

Of course the exhaust is not the same as the channel in the sidepod. That's why I spoke of them separately and referred to them by different names.

I have looked at the exhaust, in many pictures, and it points 10 degrees outward and 10 degrees upward, to the letter of the law.

[bhall]

I have looked at the exhaust, in many pictures, and it points 10 degrees outward and 10 degrees upward, to the letter of the law.

It's actually +/- 10 degrees when viewed from above and +10 to +30 degrees when viewed from the reference plane.

I think we're beat on this, man. Look at the last picture I posted.

[Pierce89]

A technical directive is an altogether different beast. A TD is Charlie Whiting's way of saying something to the effect of, "This is how I read the regulations, and I'm going to use that definition as the basis for every decision I make regarding a component's legality."

yes, so a TD saying exhaust can't be "reingested" means: That's for all intents and purposes the rule now.
I think the RB8 exhaust is not the silver bullet they had in last year's EBD. All teams can reproduce it without a whole lot of difficulty.( or at least not a lot of difficulty by F1 standards)I think this year we'll be back to traditonal aero work(non-exhaust, non f-duct, you know: wings n stuff) being the main performance differentiator. Especially controlling the vortices off of the front wing and using them to good effect. Also I think a lot of the aero development will be small iterative geometry changes that we'll probably miss more than we catch.
Also the regs all but stifle diffuser development, both geometrically and because this tiny weak diffuser will be hard to pull real gains out of

[raymondu999]

15 pages of exhaust gas analysis just lets the bloody big 'my toes are a bit chilly' letterbox escape study, as far as I'm concerned. Where's the NCIS enhancement of that pit lane spy shot!?

Got a team doing the enhancement right now. Im also filtering out everything except infrared from the image and overlaying it on the original image - we should visibly see the exhaust path

[PlatinumZealot]

I think we need Car galleries threads. Just pictures of the cars and maybe diagrams of how some mechanism work. Just pictures alone! Like what Barr555 used to do.

[Adrian Newby]

Such a pointless load of armchair crap I have not seen in a long time.

It keeps us off the streets

And if we keep the battle of the know-it-all nerds confined to this area, the rest of the populace can be spared. You don't want us barging into your daughter's classroom for a throwdown over exhaust angles!

[raymondu999]

I think we need Car galleries threads. Just pictures of the cars and maybe diagrams of how some mechanism work. Just pictures alone! Like what Barr555 used to do.

Except those WERE the threads back then - all people did was post pics of upgrades, and captioned them with what they did! Those were the days...

[RobertPthe3rd]

This is my first post but I have watched f1 since 1999 when we started getting it on the east coast of the USA. I have been combing the boards for years without saying anything. I am very knowledgeable, especially about the tech. That's what sets f1 apart. The engineering challenge. It's the things the casual fan don't know that are the most exciting. From looking at the rb8 its obvious the update is meant to channel the exhaust between the floor and wheel. The strakes on the floor. The holes around the wheel. The way the exhaust spills over the sidepod. Caused by the low pressure area at the outside of the tunnel, the flowing air will draw the exhaust outward through the end jog in the outlet channel. Then the air rushing over will help to deflect it downward and at lower speeds they want it sealing the diffuser allowing them to run more rake, making more floor downforce. At higher speeds it goes more aft following the ramp and the duct outlet. I lean looking overhead you can clearly see a channel made by the edge of the sidepod,and a ridge in the floor. As well as the rear tire and the 4-6" strakes a few inches in from them on the floor.