Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[trinidefender]

To back up Wazari statement that Honda is working on two different PU specs for next year.

Honda is working on a new PU with bigger compressor and better MGU-H for next year but it might not be ready by Feb 1 or 28!

So their Skunkworks(their best now and past engineers) is working on the backup plan(compressor still in V but about 10% bigger and getting the MGU-H to run 100% the whole lap).
Improving and fixing this years PU Turbocharger and MGU-H.

I'll bet that the updates are more focused on the turbine than the compressor. Changing the compressor doesn't have to much effect on the MGU-H recovery. If anything it has more of an effect on ICE combustion. The turbine is what really affects how much energy that the MGU-H can capture. If the turbine is to small (it cannot flow enough exhaust gases without to much back pressure building up).

At present the turbine is to small (again, cannot flow enough exhaust gasses without to much back pressure). That means that for the MGU-H to place a load on the turbine (to act as a generator) the back pressure will rise to high reducing the power output of the ICE. At he same time an article talked about the new combustion upgrade decrease the thermal load on the MGU-H area. One way this can be achieved is through the use of a slightly leaner mixture. Maybe the new combustion tokens that were used allow more stable combustion at leaner mixture. This is one method to reduce he temp of the exhaust gasses. To run leaner may require a higher airflow, therefore requiring a larger compressor. I.e. Maybe part of their plan for next year.

[NL_Fer]

To back up Wazari statement that Honda is working on two different PU specs for next year.

Honda is working on a new PU with bigger compressor and better MGU-H for next year but it might not be ready by Feb 1 or 28!

So their Skunkworks(their best now and past engineers) is working on the backup plan(compressor still in V but about 10% bigger and getting the MGU-H to run 100% the whole lap).
Improving and fixing this years PU Turbocharger and MGU-H.

I guess u mean running -K for all full throttle parts of the lap. With other words, harvest enough with -H to have over 60s of -K available. Maybe they need a bigger compressor, to produces more Ice power and more exhaust gasses to harvest from?

[Sasha]

Simple terms and not a full page tech paper.

ICE needs more charge(air)=bigger compressor

MGU-H needs to run at the sametime(without robbing ICE power) and do it the whole lap without overheating/self destructing=better turbine design,shaft and bearings/seals and better heat management.

[damager21]

With the ERS of the Honda being run at 30% efficiency at some tracks and others being run at the highest setting of 65%, that mean the Honda ERS is being run at as low as 48hp to 104hp, so the Honda is always at a deficit on overall power. When the other 3 ERS are working at 90-98% efficiency.

A quick question. When you say Honda is running at 30% to 65% efficiency is it because it cannot harvest enough or is it because of heating problems? If it is because of limited energy harvesting, what parameters / factors are driving such a high variation of 35% as compared to other manufacturers where the variation is only 8%

[FW17]

Simple terms and not a full page tech paper.

ICE needs more charge(air)=bigger compressor

MGU-H needs to run at the sametime(without robbing ICE power) and do it the whole lap without overheating/self destructing=better turbine design,shaft and bearings/seals and better heat management.

Does a bigger compressor mean it consumes lesser power for the the same volume/pressure of air at the plenum?

The problem must be more turbine related which is not able to generate/recover enough power from the exhaust gases.

[NL_Fer]

With the ERS of the Honda being run at 30% efficiency at some tracks and others being run at the highest setting of 65%, that mean the Honda ERS is being run at as low as 48hp to 104hp, so the Honda is always at a deficit on overall power. When the other 3 ERS are working at 90-98% efficiency.

A quick question. When you say Honda is running at 30% to 65% efficiency is it because it cannot harvest enough or is it because of heating problems? If it is because of limited energy harvesting, what parameters / factors are driving such a high variation of 35% as compared to other manufacturers where the variation is only 8%

It's just bollocks. Honda designed a turbo to run at the maximum alllowed 125000 rpm, where others are believed to be running at 100000. But in the first races, the turbo tended to overheat, so the rpm was limited far lower than 125000 rpm. Which causes them less top end power. But i think they sorted it out already, when Arai claimed to have Ferrari power level. He was talking ICE power i guess.

To fix the deployment issue, Honda needs to harvest more power with the mgu-h and probably a bigger turbine. It would be possible, that a bigger turbine would not be able to rev 125000 rpm. So the compressor has to be increassed also, to make up for the lower turbo rpm. That is what they have been working on, since Monza.

[a1b2i3r45]

http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... -2016.html

"Honda is set to retain their unique engine layout next season, with their small MGU-H positioned within the upper-rear portion of the engine block between the compressor and the turbo"

Is it true?

[McMrocks]

http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... -2016.html

"Honda is set to retain their unique engine layout next season, with their small MGU-H positioned within the upper-rear portion of the engine block between the compressor and the turbo"

Is it true?

I don't think they know more than we do. Honda seems to be aware that they are lacking power from the MGU-H thus i believe they might introduce a larger MGU-H turbine while keeping it in the same area

[PlatinumZealot]

Simple terms and not a full page tech paper.

ICE needs more charge(air)=bigger compressor

MGU-H needs to run at the sametime(without robbing ICE power) and do it the whole lap without overheating/self destructing=better turbine design,shaft and bearings/seals and better heat management.

It is not because the ICE needs more air why they will use a bigger compressor... It is because of the air flow charectistic when the compressor is being turned by the MGUH. Less losses while charging. Remember a formula 1 engine has the throttles AFTER the compressor - the old industrial trick of unloading the compressor by cutting the air off cannot be used. A big ole compressor has less boost at low shaft speed and takes less horsepower to turn in this situations where you want the ERS to charge. So it is ideal.

This is almost like the trick of using an over sized turbo if you want to have a fuel efficient turbo modification on your street car. The bigger turbo makes boost at a higher rpm range, so during regular commuting you can drive the car in the lower rpm range which will be "off boost" and you will save fuel. When you are street racing, you will always use high rpm range so the boost will be there when you want it. On the other hand, if you used a small turbo it will spool up too quick at low rpms and you will have too much boost too early and the engine consume more fuel during regular driving.

[drunkf1fan]

http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... -2016.html

"Honda is set to retain their unique engine layout next season, with their small MGU-H positioned within the upper-rear portion of the engine block between the compressor and the turbo"

Is it true?

No, someone does a technical drawing then adds on the new exhaust. It's what a million people will do, take an existing design and make a mock up of what the new version may look like.. It's an example, that the f1.com guy thinks he has seen, and would draw and release publicly even if he had access, next years engine and thus this is a drawing of a finished next years engine is absurd.

It's like concept cars for 2017, you can draw something that generally follows the proposed rules to give an idea of what something will look like, there is no way you can take it as fact that is the design that will be used. I'm genuinely embarrassed for the complete and utter joke the f1.com site has become this year. The fact stats by attempting to round up information in easy to read out of 10 ratings. The subscription for basic access to some in race data and that after paying the amount of sensible easy to provide data that is missing and the genuine horror that is using the website now. Quality top to bottom is dire for everything involved in that website including the technical analysis.

Honda may stick with this years engine design(highly doubtful IMHO) regardless of if they don't that is a basic example of what next years engine could look like, nothing more or less.

Though it does appear to suggest that Piola believes this years engine uses a a radial compressor not axial and that both the compressor is tiny and the turbine is pretty dang small.

[superdowg316]

http://www.formula1.com/content/fom-web ... -2016.html

"Honda is set to retain their unique engine layout next season, with their small MGU-H positioned within the upper-rear portion of the engine block between the compressor and the turbo"

Is it true?

No, considering Arai stated this months ago: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... e-for-2016

It is understood that solutions to the energy recovery deficit will need a rethink of certain key components – which are believed to include the compressor.

Such changes cannot be made during the campaign because of the tight engine homologation regulations.

Arai said therefore that progress would be limited this year, even with development tokens left to use, but suggested that bigger changes for 2016 were already being prepared.

“We already found what is the weak point for the power unit, so we have already started work on next season development,” he explained.

When asked if token use this year would help at all, he explained: “Right now I cannot say anything about future tokens in this season. But the weak point is the deployment.

“It is very difficult because of a layout issue. Of course, we want to change that for next year but first we want to get a small number of gains of the deployment every race.”


[patatrice]

Everything is wrong, please read 5.8.4 part of the 2016 technical rules. Each tail pipes must meet dimensional regulations. How G Piola must be wrong like this ?

[Abarth]

Best compressor size in this formula boils down to best compressor efficiency @ required boost and mass flow, and within given limits of rotational speed, be it from regulation, be it from MGU-H capabilities.
Btw the Turbo is allowed to more than 125'000 min-1, this number is only the limit of MGU-H. But to be able to go higher with the turbo, you have to gear the MGU-H, which is explicitly allowed, as is clutching it.

[Abarth]

[[...]Though it does appear to suggest that Piola believes this years engine uses a a radial compressor not axial and that both the compressor is tiny and the turbine is pretty dang small.

I think that most educated guesses must come to the conclusion that it's not possible to run a one stage axial compressor, since the required PR is >2.5.

Edit: turbine changed with compressor

[rscsr]

It is always how to define things. I think that they are defining one stage as one air cooler. Therefore if you would compress the air from i.e. 1 to 2bar --> cool it down --> compress 2 to 3 bar --> cool it down, would count as a 2 stage compression. This definition makes sense from a thermodynamic standpoint.
From an aerodynamic standpoint the stage definition would come down to the amount of different compression stages (with the corresponding static blades). Like you would count the stages on a gas or steam turbine.

sry for the most likely expressions, but I learned most of it in German