McLaren MP4-28 (pre-launch speculation)

[mclaren_mircea]

*the strenghts of mp4-27 were totally diferent solutions.
sorry

[wesley123]

About Mclaren, I'm a little afraid with the pull-rod suspension, and with the possibility of Mclaren going for a higher nose. Because that kind of suspension was a mess for Ferrari

No it was not

and Mclaren lacks experience with that kind of suspension in the modern era of F1.

Name one team apart from Ferrari that does not lack experience with this? Also that is the same with everything, so to use this as an excuse for why theywouldnt incorporate it on their car, it is a bad one.

I hope it is not another "octopus exhaust" case in performance for Mclaren.

Why should that be the case?

And with the nose, Mclaren for some years developed good cars with low-noses.

Doesnt mean that maximum tub height isn't the best solution.

[Lycoming]

Mclaren have used a pullrod rear since the -26. I still can't believe people honestly think Ferrari's problems were related to their choice of pullrod suspension.

[Javert]

Mclaren have used a pullrod rear since the -26. I still can't believe people honestly think Ferrari's problems were related to their choice of pullrod suspension.

The rear pull rod as Newey explained is by far the best solution for the rear with the current diffusers.

The debate is about front pull rod, which was reintroduced by Ferrari F2012, and if it really worth the game.

[mclaren_mircea]

1. Yes it was a mess. Beside their wind tunnel problems the pull rod was a gamble. During the test in February 2012 ( in Barcelona) James Allen made an analysis on how the cars behaved on high speed corners. Mclaren and Sauber made a good impression to him,about Red Bull said that thay must have something more in the bag that they not shown, and about Ferrari were the most interesting opinion. The correlation between their mechanichal grip and aerodynamic efficiency at the front of the car was horrendous. The F2012 was entering so bad in the corners, and under braking the car was struggling to mantain a decent trace, so, leaving the corners the car simply had not enough speed/grip. Were put in balance other deficiencies of F2012, but Allen studied during that testing days the Ferrari's front suspension, concentrating on how that affected the car in entering and leaving the high-speed corners of Barcelona. The idea was that the aerodynamic gains offered by that kind of suspension were less important than the correlation between mechanical and aerodynamic benefits offered by the push-rod suspension.

2. It's true that other teams, doesn't have experience with this kind of suspension. But here we are talking about Mclaren and the obligativity of a Mclaren dominance this year. It's quite risky even if they have to catch up only with Ferrari in this aspect. It's quite risky because in the end they have to restructure all the internal aerodynamics of the car. They have such a good basis with push-rod, low-nose of the mp4-27, so they could have spent the winter refining, refining and refining until the very last detail this concept. Let's say that the level of performance will be the same, or approximately the same, why should they risk, given that for Ferrari,mp4-28 is theoretically out of reach. With moderate risk and a conservative aproach (because mp4-27 with gearbox and hydraulics problems solved) they would not be dominant, but would be ahead of everyone in Melbourne. By taking such a sensitive risk might be well ahead or might be forced to catch up.

3. I said about the octopus exhaust, because it was a gamble that could have been avoided by following Red Bull or Lotus more conventional approach. In the end they realised that. With octopus exhaust they risked, thinking that they could leap the others, and the result was a disaster. Having a good basis you can remain at the front implementing a more moderate approach, and if this approach is well balanced and ultra-refined you should have a top-car without unnecessary risks. They don't have to recover like Mercedes seconds per lap, risking something very innovative... or something that they have not done before.

4. Regarding the nose, Mclaren spent years (NOT a single year, or a couple of months) refining and developing relative low-noses. With so much knowledge and experience in this area, they could easily integrate a moderate low-nose in a winning championship car, without the obligativity to understand, learn and develop a new type of nose.

[turbof1]

4. Regarding the nose, Mclaren spent years (NOT a single year, or a couple of months) refining and developing relative low-noses. With so much knowledge and experience in this area, they could easily integrate a moderate low-nose in a winning championship car, without the obligativity to understand, learn and develop a new type of nose.

They spend years with a low nose, until they decided during the season that they had to change their philosophy. IMO, it's more feasible they want to continue this new path and raise the nose again.

[mclaren_mircea]

@turbof1

You are partially right with the nose. But the nose that they adopted in the second half of the season I don't think that is a properly high nose. It's somewhere "between". It's a refined form of their original nose. It's higher than the first variant, but it's rathar an evolution. The basics and the structure of the nose does not depart significantly from their conceptual thesis, and is something much more complex than a typically higher nose. But I don't have the pretension that I hold all the truth. I may be very well wrong with the nose and a true high nose can be a real advantage for mp4-28, as well as the pull-rod, but I'm here to learn about F1 and to change ideas about the Mclaren car with other supporters of this team, in a constructive debate

[turbof1]

@turbof1

You are partially right with the nose. But the nose that they adopted in the second half of the season I don't think that is a properly high nose. It's somewhere "between". It's a refined form of their original nose. It's higher than the first variant, but it's rathar an evolution. The basics and the structure of the nose does not depart significantly from their conceptual thesis, and is something much more complex than a typically higher nose. But I don't have the pretension that I hold all the truth. I may be very well wrong with the nose and a true high nose can be a real advantage for mp4-28, as well as the pull-rod, but I'm here to learn about F1 and to change ideas about the Mclaren car with other supporters of this team, in a constructive debate

If I am correct, they raised the nose as high as possible within the limits of the chassis they had back then. I can't tell if they were bothered for raising it even more and in turn construct a new, higher chassis. If they weren't, then most likely the chassis will not be raised either this year. If they were looking at raising it, but came to the conclusion it wasn't worth the trouble to construct a new chassis, then they might do it this year.

I also have to note that raising the chassis also allows bigger turning vanes and wider wing pylons. The disadvantages are different suspension geometry and a higher CoG, and most of all lack of any knowledge of such (other teams have 3 to 4 years experience with this). It can go both ways, and although I believe they'll continue down the road they have recently taken, I would not be suprised either that they revert back to their previous incarnation.

[mclaren_mircea]

@to all

Guys, I know that this topic is not about the Wind Tunnel of Mclaren, but please if you know something exactly about which scale the Mclaren wind tunnel is operating? I know that Mclaren has two wind tunnels for Mclaren Racing (the F1 team), and 1 for Mclaren Automotive. I thought that Mclaren was using 60% scale wind tunnels, but I read right now an article on http://www.omnicorse.it, that Mclaren is using the Toyota wind tunnel (which is 60% scale) because the Mclaren wind tunnels for the f1 team are only 50% scale. Please if you now something on this topic post here.

[mclaren_mircea]

Sadly I have already found the answer It's 50% scale. Red Bull has 60%, Mercedes has 60% (from this year) and Ferrari will have 60% in august 2013.
"As well as testing new development parts for the cars, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes also maps its aerodynamics in the tunnel.

Different wing angles and set-ups are needed for different race tracks and all have to be tested, with tables of aerodynamic data built up for the race team’s use. They relate to a myriad of changeable areas – flap, angles, rear wing angles, cooling options, brake ducts, bodywork exits and so on.

The 50% scale model of the car which is used in the wind tunnel is made from carbon fibre and modelling block and is attached to a support strut, through which it is connected to a mechanism that can control its pitch and ride height to an accuracy of 0.01mm.

Creating an aerodynamic map to be used to develop the settings for each race allows the precise balance between drag and downforce to be determined according to which circuit the car is being prepared for."

[thestig84]

but I read right now an article on http://www.omnicorse.it, that Mclaren is using the Toyota wind tunnel (which is 60% scale) because the Mclaren wind tunnels for the f1 team are only 50% scale. Please if you now something on this topic post here.

That is correct. Their wind tunnel is quite dated now. Its mostly used by Marussia and other Mclaren areas like GT3 and Automotive. The new Applied Technology building across the roundabout will house a state of the art wind tunnel, until then I guess its Toyota.

[ell66]

its pretty obvious that next years car will be very similar to this years, much in the way the 2008 car was similar to the 2007.
They'd be foolish to try something big and different seeing as they have a winning a formula and also the big regulation change next year doesn't help.

Got a feeling the car's pace will be tough to figure out for us outsiders as lets be honest button and perez are hardly the fastest or most consistent of the bunch.

Will be shocked if they dont win at least a few races between them though.

[KATO]

Pérez and Button should look good right out the Box at Melbourne but it is true that Button is the kind of driver that needs a great car. However I strongly believe he will have it the Mp4-28 is being designed to suit him. So look for Button to be similar to his Championship season... I hope it's enough and I am really looking forward to what button and Perez can do..

[turbof1]

Pérez and Button should look good right out the Box at Melbourne but it is true that Button is the kind of driver that needs a great car. However I strongly believe he will have it the Mp4-28 is being designed to suit him. So look for Button to be similar to his Championship season... I hope it's enough and I am really looking forward to what button and Perez can do..

Perez is more similar to Button then Hamilton was, isn't it? McLaren now atleast can build a car that is more designed towards one single driving style (although Hamilton probably could handle a pure Button car like a charm). That should atleast give less headaches and more focus towards making the car faster.

I am not entirely sure though Button is going to be fighting for the championship; what Button showed from 2009 until last season, was that in the begin of the season he performs stunningly, but when a big update came, he suddenly could not handle the car anymore for a long time. That happened at Brawn and that also happened at McLaren. It's like he first gets perfectly tuned in for the car during testing, but when updates come and the car reacts slightly different, he looses quite some speed.

[k.ko100v]

Hi all.

I will give more a prediction, than a speculation, about the "28"

IMO, the "28" will be the best car, out of the box and will tell you, why.

I think, it will be their first car build on the limits of the technical regulations since 2009.
For sure, the nose will be high. Earlier in the 2012, they said, that the 28 will be with pull rod, so maybe they have researched the system and they will try it.
Probably, the fron wing of the car launch, will be the USA spec, but after the tests, will be much diferent (most because of the nose and the pull rod). The vanes under the nose will be diferent for sure.
The exhausts. Probably it will be ramp with tunnels. The ramp seems like more complicated system, wich has more field for development and i believe the MTC has the potencial to accept that challenge. If this happend, then there will be different sidepods, rear wing and different diffuser.

With this upgrades they must reach the RB`s levels of downforce and the better top speed the McLarens have, will give him big advantige to the Bulls (who will suffer the most, after the qually DRS ban)

So, the nose, the front susspenion, the exhausts, will changes the whole concept of the car. I predrict a revolution more than evolution.

This is only what i think. Best wishes for all!