The 2016 F1 WDC Title Dumpster Topic

[dans79]

Is there an argument to be made that Rosberg is nicer to his car and its components than Hamiliton?

No.

Not that I disagree, but can you expand on that ?

Given all the penalties and some of the comments Lewis made I find it really hard to believe that if Lewis had been doing something that damaged the car someone on the team would have said something by now. If memory serves, the team actually said the opposite that Lewis had done no wrong.

[ScottB]

Is there an argument to be made that Rosberg is nicer to his car and its components than Hamiliton?

No.

Not that I disagree, but can you expand on that ?

Could be an argument that the mechanic team that switched over to Nico might be better with the car and it's components though, certainly the driver with the guys now with Lewis has had the worse reliability record in the last couple seasons...

[Just_a_fan]

But it is VERY interesting how it will be dealed within the team. Taking a look at the Merc company values and their incredible hard way to sack people who do not comply, this would be a clear sack in the Merc company. But, of course, this is something else here. Wolff's words were quite hard, so he needs to take action, otherwise he is the weak blanket many think of him. If anyone in the Merc team (Paddy, Wolff or Lauda) would like to do Ham any harm, they would put him on the bench for 3 races and tell him "good luck with the WDC 2017". But I rather hope and think Ham will lift the company's revenue and the christmas gratification for the normal employees with his penalty.

So for me the action they take is the real interesting point. I fear that they will do nothing.

They shouldn't have been asking him to speed up in the first place. The team title was in the bag so this race was only for the drivers. The team should just say "don't crash" and leave them to it. Mercedes will look very silly if they punish one of their drivers for trying to win the title. Indeed, I expect Wolff to come out in the coming days and say "we've chatted and understand that we were wrong to get involved".

If Mercedes only goal is 1-2 at each race they should just say at the start of the season "our drivers will not race, we will decide who wins from the pit wall".

If RedBull/Ferrari are on their gearboxes next year, Mercedes will be lucky if their drivers actually do race hard.

[LionKing]

No.

Not that I disagree, but can you expand on that ?

Could be an argument that the mechanic team that switched over to Nico might be better with the car and it's components though, certainly the driver with the guys now with Lewis has had the worse reliability record in the last couple seasons...

This has been mentioned a few times before but once again they did not switch the teams they mixed the mechanics from both sides of the garages up.

[LionKing]

If Mercedes only goal is 1-2 at each race they should just say at the start of the season "our drivers will not race, we will decide who wins from the pit wall".

They are free to race but Lewis was not doing that he was deliberately trying to compromise his team mate in the race. Mercedes had a car that would be well clear in front of others if it weren't for Lewis's dirty antics.

Of course he can do that when he sets up his own race team like Lewis racing but not when he is driving for Mercedes team. Especially when in Monaco Nico already let Lewis through when team asked him to do so.

[basti313]

Is there an argument to be made that Rosberg is nicer to his car and its components than Hamiliton?

No.

Not that I disagree, but can you expand on that ?

No. At least not here.

They shouldn't have been asking him to speed up in the first place. The team title was in the bag so this race was only for the drivers. The team should just say "don't crash" and leave them to it.

There is one big rule in the Merc company: Money talks. The same for the F1 team. They have the clear duty to finish two cars as good as they can (which brings a lot of money each individual race). And not to host any Ros vs. Ham bullshit.

Mercedes will look very silly if they punish one of their drivers for trying to win the title. Indeed, I expect Wolff to come out in the coming days and say "we've chatted and understand that we were wrong to get involved".

If Mercedes only goal is 1-2 at each race they should just say at the start of the season "our drivers will not race, we will decide who wins from the pit wall".

This is something else. You are missing the point of not crashing a car that is in a different league of the others and cost millions of dollars.

If RedBull/Ferrari are on their gearboxes next year, Mercedes will be lucky if their drivers actually do race hard.

I hope you are right, but I can not see why anything should change at the moment.

[mwillems]

Was Hamilton going too far in has tactics today? Well, the history of F1 is soaked in teams and drivers taking rules to the very limit and often beyond. But Hamilton didn't go beyond the rules of the sport or near. If he was in breach of Team orders, that is personal to him and the Team, I think. As fans, we don't need to take issue (Unless we delight in being upset and throwing tomatoes at the pantomime villain, which is your prerogative).

Well, how you treat your team and your teammate puts a certain picture on you, doesn't it?
I agree with the sportsmanship: I do not really care about the two and their personal reasons. But it is VERY interesting how it will be dealed within the team. Taking a look at the Merc company values and their incredible hard way to sack people who do not comply, this would be a clear sack in the Merc company. But, of course, this is something else here. Wolff's words were quite hard, so he needs to take action, otherwise he is the weak blanket many think of him. If anyone in the Merc team (Paddy, Wolff or Lauda) would like to do Ham any harm, they would put him on the bench for 3 races and tell him "good luck with the WDC 2017". But I rather hope and think Ham will lift the company's revenue and the christmas gratification for the normal employees with his penalty.

So for me the action they take is the real interesting point. I fear that they will do nothing.

he didn't try to ram Rosberg off the road. Not that he could, Nico was too scared to go near him!

Well, Schu, Senna, Prost and so on were driving on racing tracks with gravel and barriers. Running Nico off the lines on a parking space does not make much sense.

Which is the other point, if he was going slow, why not get up his gearbox and push him. He gave Nico a choice, chance it with 3rd and 4th or chance it with Hamilton. Nico still always had a choice, he wasn't a victim. But it seems to rather reflect him rather well in my opinion, that he came across as a bit helpless.

Again: This is not the first race in Abu Dhabi and this is not the first time one Merc has no chance to overtake the other Merc. Ham did it clever, he stopped on the apexes in S3 and put his foot down hard in S1 and S2.
Sorry, but you simply have no idea about modern F1 if you think Ros could have just attacked.

Why fear them doing nothing? Drivers have always been a different breed. I'm not so sure there's a point in comparing them to another role in the team. Many of them get their winning ways from their ruthless streak. It's great when it works, and a nightmare when it doesn't. But you can't really have one or the other.


With regards to overtaking, I fear you miss the point (But thankyou for charmingly informing me that as I have a different opinion to you, I must be ignorant of the sport). He didn't need to overtake, but he could have forced Hamilton to up the speed. He chose not to, but to sit back as Hamilton got slower and slower.

I don't fear a lack of nor wish for any punishment on Hamilton, I look forward to more Drama next year. Sport is entertainment and the likes of Verstappen and Hamilton are welcome to me.

I'm not sure Button would agree about track limits or going to far over the kerbs neither. Nor did Rosberg need to crash. A run off track with dirty tyres whilst being followed by a Red Bull and a Ferrari would have been enough to put Rosberg firmly in the danger zone.

In any case I think they will do nothing. Both Toto and Paddy have made statements veering toward mitigation. Toto saying that as a driver he would do the same. Paddy stating that he doesn't know how much speed is left in the car so he can't really judge... suggesting that Hamilton might be confident that he could pull away and take the win anyway. In any case, I doubt they will bench their best driver in an era with new regulations.

[mwillems]

I'm a little puzzled about the teams apparent reaction to what Lewis did.

Wolff has made much of the guys being free to race. This was the final race of the season, the constructors title was in the bag, one Merc driver was going to take the drivers no matter what happened. The team telling Hamilton he had to speed up because of Max / Vettel catching up sounds reasonable in a normal race, but today it was effectively telling Lewis to give up the slim chance of retaining his title.

Was he ever going to respond to that? Why should he? Yes, you have to do right by your team, but asking your driver to throw in the towel, because your other driver apparently lacked the capability to pass on his own, that seems somewhat unreasonable from the team to me.

Ultimately, the team had nothing to gain from getting involved, those messages seem a bit daft, Lewis was never going to follow them. Nico asking to be let through only adds to the idea that he can't fully go toe to toe with Hamilton too. The smarter thing would have been for the team to say that they wouldn't get involved, and that all bets were off, other than avoiding any contact.

I suspect that it was as important for Nico to hear the team trying to maintain team orders, as it was to Hamilton to ignore them. I doubt they put much stock into the idea of Lewis following them, but tried anyway.

[Restomaniac]

If Mercedes only goal is 1-2 at each race they should just say at the start of the season "our drivers will not race, we will decide who wins from the pit wall".

They are free to race but Lewis was not doing that he was deliberately trying to compromise his team mate in the race. Mercedes had a car that would be well clear in front of others if it weren't for Lewis's dirty antics.

Of course he can do that when he sets up his own race team like Lewis racing but not when he is driving for Mercedes team. Especially when in Monaco Nico already let Lewis through when team asked him to do so.

Dirty antics?
Tell me do you think Hamilton should have just given Rosberg the title on a plate?

[ScottB]

If Mercedes only goal is 1-2 at each race they should just say at the start of the season "our drivers will not race, we will decide who wins from the pit wall".

They are free to race but Lewis was not doing that he was deliberately trying to compromise his team mate in the race. Mercedes had a car that would be well clear in front of others if it weren't for Lewis's dirty antics.

Of course he can do that when he sets up his own race team like Lewis racing but not when he is driving for Mercedes team. Especially when in Monaco Nico already let Lewis through when team asked him to do so.

Dirty antics?
Tell me do you think Hamilton should have just given Rosberg the title on a plate?

'Free to race' surely means just that? Or shouldn't it?

If Lewis was only 'free' to race flat out for the flag, then effectively you'd have Merc deciding the title via team orders.

Nico was free to catch up and pass, had he had the gumption / ability to do so.

[Just_a_fan]

dirty antics.

Dirty antics is wrecking your rival's qualifying by deliberately causing a yellow flag.

Backing a rival in to the pack is an entirely legitimate racing tactic. It's used in race series at every level.

[FrukostScones]

some maybe might rember Monaco this year, where ROS let by HAM. Could have easily cost him the title.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVEu5qBbe58

[Just_a_fan]

Rosberg was at best driving at midfield pace in Monaco.

[FrukostScones]

Rosberg was at best driving at midfield pace in Monaco.

and? did HAM overtake him? or did ROS moved aside as requested by the team?

[basti313]

Was Hamilton going too far in has tactics today? Well, the history of F1 is soaked in teams and drivers taking rules to the very limit and often beyond. But Hamilton didn't go beyond the rules of the sport or near. If he was in breach of Team orders, that is personal to him and the Team, I think. As fans, we don't need to take issue (Unless we delight in being upset and throwing tomatoes at the pantomime villain, which is your prerogative).

Well, how you treat your team and your teammate puts a certain picture on you, doesn't it?
I agree with the sportsmanship: I do not really care about the two and their personal reasons. But it is VERY interesting how it will be dealed within the team. Taking a look at the Merc company values and their incredible hard way to sack people who do not comply, this would be a clear sack in the Merc company. But, of course, this is something else here. Wolff's words were quite hard, so he needs to take action, otherwise he is the weak blanket many think of him. If anyone in the Merc team (Paddy, Wolff or Lauda) would like to do Ham any harm, they would put him on the bench for 3 races and tell him "good luck with the WDC 2017". But I rather hope and think Ham will lift the company's revenue and the christmas gratification for the normal employees with his penalty.

So for me the action they take is the real interesting point. I fear that they will do nothing.

he didn't try to ram Rosberg off the road. Not that he could, Nico was too scared to go near him!

Well, Schu, Senna, Prost and so on were driving on racing tracks with gravel and barriers. Running Nico off the lines on a parking space does not make much sense.

Which is the other point, if he was going slow, why not get up his gearbox and push him. He gave Nico a choice, chance it with 3rd and 4th or chance it with Hamilton. Nico still always had a choice, he wasn't a victim. But it seems to rather reflect him rather well in my opinion, that he came across as a bit helpless.

Again: This is not the first race in Abu Dhabi and this is not the first time one Merc has no chance to overtake the other Merc. Ham did it clever, he stopped on the apexes in S3 and put his foot down hard in S1 and S2.
Sorry, but you simply have no idea about modern F1 if you think Ros could have just attacked.

Why fear them doing nothing?

Sorry, "fear" was the wrong word. Actually I think it will be entertaining when Ham and Ros get the acknowledgement, that they can ignore the things the team tells them to do. I expect the same order among the teams like this year next year and Ros and Ham driving against each other with really unleashing "their ruthless streak" would at least spice it up a bit.