Has Max been a verryyy naughty boy?

[Ciro Pabón]

C'mon, G-Rock: I agree with your point of view, as a matter of fact, but what Mosley did was illegal, there is no doubt. How come that you can say that there is no proof? He was filmed. Heck, he even accepted it occurred, publicily, he did it in the newspapers... so anyone can sue Max right now.

I think this makes untenable his position: the simple accusation of a hooker can put the guy behind bars.

Pleeeze, I beg you (and P_O_L): if you want to argue more, feed us with some legislation, not with opinions.

We agree with your opinion! Repeat: the forum agrees with you on the morals of the case (well, in my case I find S&M ok, but paying for it causes revulsion in me). However, go and tell that to a lawyer for him to use as a trial defense. My father would laugh a hearty laugh, I'm sure.

[gcdugas]

Forget legalities. The person who is head of the FIA needs stature and credibility. Without it he cannot effectively perform the duties his office requires. Max simply has to go. He is/will be the source of endless jokes. Max himself is a joke. F1 is business and like it or not, there is a certain level of acceptable decorum required which Max has forfeited by his actions, or if you wish, had stolen from him by an invasion of his "privacy". Either way, it is out there and it is, to use Bernie's words, "repulsive".

Remember, we have seen the PG version (about 2 minutes long) of a 5 hour "event". There are another 4 hours and 58 minutes that will no doubt soon find itself in the "Pam $ Tommy Lee" or "Paris Hilton" level of circulation once NotW exhausts its usefulness to their gain. In this day and age it takes little effort for them to create "plausible deniability". Once they mail out 130 copies to the FIA members, all they have to do is upload it to an internet porn site in some foreign land using a few aliases, or have it "stolen" from them before it appears and wah-lah, the whole 5 hour genie is out of the bottle.

Max may know the law of the land but he is not in their courts. He is in the "court of public opinion" and there is only one rule there.... perception is reality.

He cannot go on. It is only a matter of time and how ugly it has to get before he is gone. He will last no further than the FIA meeting, if that long.

BTW, Bob Varsha an American "presenter" asks: "If all this is a private matter, then why is Max responding in the capacity of his office, on FIA letterhead, faxed from the FIA, on "company time" and using company resources? Good question.

[DaveKillens]

I wonder just exactly what Max is suing "News of the World" for. Is it telling lies, or for invading a person's privacy? And it's more than interesting to note how Max's bullying efforts have dissipated in the form of a news organization willing to go nose to nose with him. Max sues, News of the World is now distributing the full five hours' via DVD. It looks like the bully has run across someone who doesn't frighten easily.
Whether Max's indiscretion is illegal, I'll just wait and see if the police or courts charge him. But as someone who represents a large organization with an elected leader who in the normal course of his duties meets world leaders... he just has to go. If anyone has ever brought Formula One and the FIA into disrepute, it is Max.

This pervert is not only harming himself, but most importantly, anyone connected to the FIA.

[G-Rock]

I don't think that what Max did was enough to make him step down. He is another Bill Clinton or Jean Chretien (our previous Prime Minister) Everything is pointing to resignation but with time people will accept it and go on. Max could be a pervert but he works amongst perverts (I wonder what Flavio does on a weekend? Kimi has done some sick sh#t in the past)
I know some people that have partied with the F1 crowd in Montreal at the Cirque du Soleil founders parties and some pretty unmentionable things happen there. DC admits to Montreal being his favourite city in the world. Why? Good strip clubs, prostitutes you name it.
The "upper crust" of society live in a different world with different standards and taking one down (like Mosley) will just open the door for revenge. The whole FIA organization will protect itself and the show will go on.
Max won't step down and I stand by that.
All these announcements from all the different teams calling for his resignation is just posturing for their sponsors who want to keep their images clean.

[Project Four]

Forget legalities. The person who is head of the FIA needs stature and credibility. Without it he cannot effectively perform the duties his office requires.

Totally correct. The debate is not about whether prositution is legal or not, right or wrong, what you get up to behind closed doors, whether S&M is morally correct or not, or some debate on the US legal system. It is about what gcdugas correctly states 'The person who is head of the FIA needs stature and credibility'.

When the head, governor, law setter of any organisation becomes the center of the news, the front page and the back page news story and not the main event which then gets relegated to a sub news story, he has to go for the sake of the sport. he has already been asked not to attend the Bahrain GP and if the stories are correct he will not be going to Spain or to Monaco either.

He also has been (allegedly) economical with the truth or an element of Clinton misspoke, regarding the allegedly Nazi-inspired S&M orgy. Mosley was claiming last week that there were no Nazi connotations to the orgy, but the UK Newspaper that broke the story has followed the story up over the weekend with further details and a detailed interview with one of the prostitutes. She claimed Mosley knew exactly what was going to happen as he ordered it and requested German speaking prostitutes and uniforms.

As an aside if he does not go god help everyone, something like this has not brought him down and he will think he can get away with anything. And he is a man who holds grudges and will reap pay back on anyone whom has crossed him

[effuno]

i found this statement in timesonline...: posted by John C ..!

Why did Mosely pay to have his backside whipped when Ron Dennis would do it for nothing?


=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

[P_O_L]

But my point is, it remains a bit vague where to draw the line on what is acceptable and what not.

I pick this last quote, but I could have picked many before this one, sorry P_O_L.

As a minimum, what's acceptable is what is legal, you know that.

The fact is that England is one of the few (if not the only) countries in the world where S&M consensual acts are illegal, even when no money is involved. Just google for "operation spanner" to see what I mean, I don't have such a bad memory as Max Mosley, barrister.

Those that think that the Crown wouldn't prosecute that, specially those who are into law as a profession, ehem, should really look into it: last time the Crown went all the way to the Court at La Haya.

I know you're entitled to your opinion but come on, the man paid a woman to allow him to beat her. What part of that are you ok with?

On my point of vieuw that what behaviour is acceptable and what is not remains vague, you respond it should be the law as minimum. My counter argument is that the law forbids many things that people still do anyway and only exceptions will be prosecuted.

It is nice that you come up with some decent refferences whereas in other posts yous cream something and when someone asks to put your money where your mouth is, you run of like a chicken. However i dont dispute the fact sm is outlawed in the uk, i merely say where to draw the line from a moral point of vieuw remains vague, everybody has a different standard for that. Insulting people with profanity is also outlawed in most countries yet i havent heard you condemning lewis gesturing such towards fisichella in the race yesterday. Thats cherry picking and inconsistent.

Further you avoid to admit you dramatise what mosley has done in saying he pays a woman to beat her, wich, on the base of the video, is simply a twist of the facts.

Back to mosley and the topic: i agree with most of dcdugas post. For me it is not the sm part wich makes his position untenable, but merely that such videos appear on internet while he should maintain a good public image as head of the fia. The video might as well have contained a straight 5 minute bang with his own missus, he should do everything to make sure it doesnt appear in public.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Rob W]

Heck, he even accepted it occurred, publicily, he did it in the newspapers... so anyone can sue Max right now.

No. Under the common law system people can't just sue others who they know have broken some law. In the same way I can't sue you if I see you driving on the motorway going 100km over the speed limit. If I filmed it I may be able to pass it onto the authorities (but they usually don't follow up this kind of thing unless it's really serious - usually only in indictable fraud or serious criminal acts).

In Max's case, as he has correctly pointed out, the filming was done illegally. Not to mention, you cannot use footage/photos of people obtained on private property without the subject's consent according to copyright law (in most countries). Newspapers will try to argue "for the greater good" or "fair use" but they simply wont win in this case. They have won in effect thought since the footage is so widely distributed now it would be futile to try to gag them (no pun intended) or stop it being spread further.

Having said that there is no way at all Max will be charged with breaking the law. They just don't bother pursuing cases like this, usually because they are a waste of time.

Max will nail the newspaper - Remember, when he loses his job he will not have the 'bringing the FIA into disrepute' concerns holding him back and will be free to pursue the paper ruthlessly.

As an aside, I just read this: http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 14,00.html

Once again, the only claims made were by The Times and The Daily Telegraph - both of whom would, in-reality, be the amongst last people privy to the information they're claiming to be true. I seriously doubt Bernie let them know details of a private conversation. (perhaps he did on the other hand.. to speed up Max's departure . I wouldn't put it past him)

R

[G-Rock]

Well said Rob W.
Could someone please give me a legal definition of S and M please? If I do recall, last year I was in England with my wife and during intercourse I gave a good smack on the arse. Would I be charged for that if there was a "Bobby" near by. If not, how hard would the smack have to be before I would go to prison?

This whole thing is so preposterous that even though I shouldn't be wasting my time on this blog, it's just to amusing for me to skip.

I think Rob W had the final word and let's leave it at that unless someone would like to answer my question above.

[mcdenife]

P_O_L wrote:

On my point of vieuw that what behaviour is acceptable and what is not remains vague, you respond it should be the law as minimum. My counter argument is that the law forbids many things that people still do anyway and only exceptions will be prosecuted

I think Project Four said it best ie:

The debate is not about whether prositution is legal or not, right or wrong, what you get up to behind closed doors, whether S&M is morally correct or not, or some debate on the US legal system. It is about what gcdugas correctly states 'The person who is head of the FIA needs stature and credibility'.

When the head, governor, law setter of any organisation becomes the center of the news, the front page and the back page news story and not the main event which then gets relegated to a sub news story, he has to go for the sake of the sport. he has already been asked not to attend the Bahrain GP and if the stories are correct he will not be going to Spain or to Monaco either.

P_O_L wrote:

It is nice that for once you come up with some decent refferences whereas in other posts yous cream something and when someone asks to put your money where your mouth is, you run of like a chicken. However i dont dispute the fact sm is outlawed in the uk, i merely say where to draw the line from a moral point of vieuw remains vague, everybody has a different standard for that. Insulting people with profanity is also outlawed in most countries yet i havent heard you condemning lewis gesturing such towards fisichella in the race yesterday. Thats cherry picking and inconsistent.

Perhaps because not only is this not about Lewis, but also because Lewis is NOT the president of the FIA. Both have difference public profiles (or roles if you wish) and therefore different expections from each (expectation being the key word here). You might not agree but it is ok for Lewis or any driver (and there have been many over the years) to gesticulate on track in
the heat of battle. It is for the gesticulatee (Fisi) to complain if he is offended by it. In this case the President of the FIA has 'gesticulated' to the 100 million.....whatever-they-are-called and organisations he is said to represent or govern. It doesnt matter whether his gesticulation was meant to be private or not, they (or we) now know and are offended period. Perversion, even
if only a perception in the eyes of the governed, is not an acceptable quality in any leader (legal or otherwise).
As an aside: The last time I looked and as far I am aware, this is an F1 forum not anti-Lewis, site which you seem to think it is.
P_O_L wrote

As for the moderation part jesus give me a break. You have some nerve to again apply double standards saying i attack the poster while you yourself do that when you go namecalling mosley as being a 'moron'. Close threads when people have a decent discussion saying it is a wasted thread and then you yourself waste a thread dramatising again on the us of a, to the point it first gets drawn to a different forum, and then even closed by your colleague moderator Tomba! How humiliating that must be for a moderator. It proves you have double standards and therefore cannot be taken seriously as a moderator. As far as im concerned you can stick your moderation where the sun dont shine. You cannot demand respect, you must earn it.

I was not aware Mosley had posted anything of this forum or are you implying you are Mosley?

[Rob W]

As for the moderation part jesus give me a break.........therefore cannot be taken seriously as a moderator. As far as im concerned you can stick your moderation where the sun dont shine. You cannot demand respect, you must earn it.

P_O_L, when you or anyone joins this forum it doesn't say anywhere that your set of criteria for judgement are the board's. It makes it pretty obvious this is a privately owned and run forum which depends on the people who contribute to keep it on track, and that the owners/moderators - however wrong you may think they are have every right to run this place as they wish.

Since you've joined little over a two months ago you've posted over 145 times. Your tone is routinely antagonistic and you call people out on all manner of things for "lack of evidence" yet quite often fail to do so yourself. Worse yet you resort to insults like above as if it somehow makes your point more 'right'.

People here have only resorted to being finicky because you've basically pushed them to the end of their tether.

When you last posted something along that topic I quoted you on a number of completely unprovable claims (right here actually: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5346&p=71257#p71257 ) which, in your usual style, the predictable rebuttal consisted largely of just repeating yourself.

You can snigger in glee that you've got up the nose of the very people who created this forum - a forum so Formula One fans have somewhere to come and share with similar people. Or you can ask yourself - if you're really an F1 fan and was motivated enough to join this forum, then why on earth would you go out of your way day after day trying to piss people here off? (don't even think about defending yourself on this point - you're entitled to your opinion on every account and everyone else is somehow always wrong - please just consider for a second that the way you act here says a lot about you)

Ciro/Tomba/Manchild and the other senior guys here answer hundreds of questions on F1 topics, to the benefit of the entire community here. I've learned so much about F1 which I would have never known otherwise. Their effort makes this place what it is.

The respect you mention in your (above) post to Ciro is not earned. They get it automatically from selflessly running this board for the benefit of all, and since Tomba owns it - by joining this site you respect him whether you like it or not - just as if you were in someone's home. If you wantonly annoy them, they'll ask you to leave.

You I imagine are young enough to still be in the Internet "no-one can see me so I'll sit here at my computer being negative and it's oh-so-hillarious" frame of mind. WISE UP! It's a really bad habit and one which will cause you untold hassle in your life if you don't stop it.

Here's a simple test for you. Take the post above. Now, go and say the same thing out aloud to your law lecturer next time you don't get the mark you think you should - and see what happens.

R

[ben_watkins]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 14,00.html

The FIA president is described as being consumed by 'a deepening madness'.

[ben_watkins]

As for the moderation part jesus give me a break.........therefore cannot be taken seriously as a moderator. As far as im concerned you can stick your moderation where the sun dont shine. You cannot demand respect, you must earn it.

The respect you mention in your (above) post to Ciro is not earned. They get it automatically from selflessly running this board for the benefit of all, and since Tomba owns it - by joining this site you respect him whether you like it or not - just as if you were in someone's home. If you wantonly annoy them, they'll ask you to leave.

R

I'd like to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Rob W - I believe that there has been far too many times where P_O_L has not respected this board, the members who contribute to it or the moderators.

Can I bring P_O_L's attention to this please..

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009 <--- The RULES of this message board

I believe you have been far less than respectful to others and I'd like to lodge a formal complaint about your abusive attitude in your posts. Frankly I'm surprised you've not been warned or given a temporary suspension or even banned by now.

[Rob W]

Just a small side note for all those who like to think Max is a complete pr*** with no redeeming features...

In 1994 when Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger were killed at the San Marion GP he was the only Formula One person who attended Ratzenberger's funeral in Austria, saying, "I went to his funeral because everyone went to Senna's. I thought it was important that somebody went to his."

R

[donskar]

Regretfully, I agree completely with Rob W's post. Many of the posts recently have been immature, mean, and of little value to most members of this forum, imo.

A much smarter man than me taught me long ago - when you feel the need to send a "flamer" email, copy it into a text file, go to bed, then re-read it the next morning. THEN decide whether or not to send it. SEVERAL of us should consider that sage advice.