Bahrain GP 2010 - BIC

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Sebp
15
Joined: 09 Mar 2010, 22:52
Location: Surrounded

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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ben_watkins wrote:I'm wandering just how many wings will get knocked off in the first few corners!?!?

My guess is 4

:lol:
Maybe even more. Cold tires + cold brakes (steel ones on HRTs :P ) + full tanks + drivers not used to how the cars feel = mega carnage :twisted:

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raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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Ok, so we have qualy. Who do you guys think will podium the race? Not who you WANT to podium, who you think will do it? I think personally the top 3 are going to end the top 3. In the same order.
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Sean H
Sean H
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Joined: 11 Apr 2009, 06:05
Location: KC

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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FM,FA,SV. SV will fall back with tire issues/strategy
"The car is slow in the straights and doesn't work well in the corners." JV

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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During all three Qualifying sessions, they didn't have that graphic list on the left side of the screen to show the order of all the cars . It was hard to watch without live timing to see which driver was in which position.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
5
Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 19:33

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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Nick Heidfeld was right about the redbulls. He gave the most comprehensive analysis of the cars. I like the guy personally and I hope he gets a very good drive next year. I would also like to see him do commentary when he's done driving...he'll tell us more than the usual rubbish like..."they're lacking grip", "they don't have the pace and on on....

And by the way, if I designed the best car and had the choice of selecting one driver, I would choose Massa in a heartbeat. The guy is so indispensable. I mean he's the best number 2 you can ever get. But when things are right, he can play that number 1 role very well also. I'm a hamilton fan but I can't imagine him being a good number 2. If he starts losing to his team mate, I don't think he'll stay in there too long. Same for Schumi and Alonso. So there you go, if you want the contructors championship, you get Massa and the supposedly best driver on the grid and you're in really good shape...except Massa might whip him until he cries....

rubbergoat
rubbergoat
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Joined: 03 Jan 2010, 03:01

Bahrain Qualifying Analysis 2010 – Making Up The Numbers

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Hey guys,

As part of my analysis on 'Making Up The Numbers', I like to have a look at the qualifying times. I hope you enjoy it and please let me know what you think. The link to the full article is here but I have also included a summary of it below for you too ;)

The action finally begins! After all the drama, talk and hype of the off-season, we finally got to see the cars turn a wheel in anger today … and while we saw some things we expected, by golly we got some surprises too!

As you may be aware, there is a ban on refuelling this year, which means that I cannot do a fuel-corrected analysis because all of the cars qualify on low fuel in all three sessions. However, there still may not be a ‘straight fight’ for pole, because the drivers that make it into Q3 will have to start the race on the tyres they qualified on.

We will see later if this makes a difference, but let’s start with a graph showing the qualifying times for all of the sessions:

Image

Let’s have a look at the individual session times separately:

Image
Image
Image

From the graphs, we can see that the field spread is much wider than last year because of the new teams. However, the midfield is going to be much tighter than last year and I think it is safe to say that McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes will be the top teams this year.

My highlights of qualifying were that the new teams were very slow in comparison to the other teams – with HRT almost as slow as a GP2 car. This is partly because they did not do any testing before turning up in Bahrain. Virgin can claim first blood in the battle of the new teams thanks to Timo Glock.

The midfield provided some interesting results. Going back to my testing summary post, I expected Williams and Sauber to qualify a lot better than they did today, which is a shame if you are a fan of these teams.

Rosberg also managed to beat Schumacher (which surprised me), Button struggled today in qualifying (blaming the car) and Hamilton also could only reach fourth. With the Super Stall Snorkel Thingy McLaren are supposed to be running, the team was expected to be much faster. However, there are stories floating around the internet that McLaren compromised their qualifying by raising the ride height so that the car will run better with a heavy fuel load tomorrow. I can't verify it, but I would not be surprised if McLaren and other teams were in fact doing this...

Sutil did a great job getting the Force India into the top 10 – and the same can be said for Kubica, especially after the apparently poor pace of the Renault in testing.

Sebastian Vettel surprised all but David Coulthard by getting pole position today with the Ferraris not far behind. Christian Horner admitted that they had not run an honest low-fuel lap in testing and so the first time they had done so was in fact in qualifying today. Has Adrian Newey produced another rocket ship?

One thing worth noting is that the Q3 times are generally slower than Q2 – implying that the drivers would not or could not drive to the limits of the cars.

Let us now look at the amount of laps run in each session to see how the drivers approached the different sessions:

Image
Image
Image
Image

Note: The drivers are listed in order of qualifying classification.

The first observation worth making is that the number of laps decreases in each session run – in fact, only half the amount of laps were run in Q3 than Q1. This must be due to the drivers trying to use the tyres as little as possible because they have to start the race on them. Also, it does not seem to matter if your car is at the front or the back of the field – all the drivers do about the same amount of laps in a particular session.

So even though we are supposed to have low fuel qualifying, the rule makers have effectively ruined it with the parc fermé rules and the tyre rules – as the drivers are not able to push the cars as fast as they could do. A shame that this situation has arisen as there is nothing better than a full on battle to see who can get the absolute fastest lap time. Still, at least this means there is some uncertainty over who is fastest and who will make the best of it in tomorrow’s race.

But questions remain. Is what we saw in Q3 a true measure of the pace of the teams, or will things be different after the race tomorrow? Will a car like the Red Bull be fast and consistent enough to recreate this pace over the whole race distance or did McLaren make the right moves? Are Ferrari ready to pounce, or will Schumi surprise us all?

I know there are some that think that the changes to the circuit may make for a dull race tomorrow, but I am still optimistic and excited for a good race tomorrow. I am hopeful that the rule changes, driver changes, new teams and the new circuit will throw up a good race. I have a feeling that although the Red Bull is fast and that Vettel is great when leading from the front that they will fade away and the McLarens will come good. I think that although Button struggled today that his smoothness and consistency will pay off for him in the long run. Also I think that Ferrari look very strong and that Schumacher will surprise us.

I think the HRT will probably not finish, maybe the Virgins won’t either, but the Lotus have a better chance (I am relying on testing form again though). Hopefully Force India and Williams will score points too…

Let me know your predictions and your comments on the post – as I’m always keen to hear from you. Enjoy the race tomorrow :D

//RubberGoat
http://f1numbers.wordpress.com/

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Bahrain Qualifying Analysis 2010 – Making Up The Numbers

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I wish you would post it in the Bahrain weekend thread. That way one can later find it and we don't get in undated with new threads all the time.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rubbergoat
rubbergoat
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Joined: 03 Jan 2010, 03:01

Re: Bahrain Qualifying Analysis 2010 – Making Up The Numbers

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WhiteBlue wrote:I wish you would post it in the Bahrain weekend thread. That way one can later find it and we don't get in undated with new threads all the time.
Your wish will be granted sir - my apologies for not posting it in the right place :(

//RubberGoat

rubbergoat
rubbergoat
0
Joined: 03 Jan 2010, 03:01

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

Post

Hey guys,

Posted this in the wrong thread so I have reposted it here on request. My apologies for the error!

As part of my analysis on 'Making Up The Numbers', I like to have a look at the qualifying times. I hope you enjoy it and please let me know what you think. The link to the full article is here but I have also included a summary of it below for you too ;)

The action finally begins! After all the drama, talk and hype of the off-season, we finally got to see the cars turn a wheel in anger today … and while we saw some things we expected, by golly we got some surprises too!

As you may be aware, there is a ban on refuelling this year, which means that I cannot do a fuel-corrected analysis because all of the cars qualify on low fuel in all three sessions. However, there still may not be a ‘straight fight’ for pole, because the drivers that make it into Q3 will have to start the race on the tyres they qualified on.

We will see later if this makes a difference, but let’s start with a graph showing the qualifying times for all of the sessions:

Image

Let’s have a look at the individual session times separately:

Image
Image
Image

From the graphs, we can see that the field spread is much wider than last year because of the new teams. However, the midfield is going to be much tighter than last year and I think it is safe to say that McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes will be the top teams this year.

My highlights of qualifying were that the new teams were very slow in comparison to the other teams – with HRT almost as slow as a GP2 car. This is partly because they did not do any testing before turning up in Bahrain. Virgin can claim first blood in the battle of the new teams thanks to Timo Glock.

The midfield provided some interesting results. Going back to my testing summary post, I expected Williams and Sauber to qualify a lot better than they did today, which is a shame if you are a fan of these teams.

Rosberg also managed to beat Schumacher (which surprised me), Button struggled today in qualifying (blaming the car) and Hamilton also could only reach fourth. With the Super Stall Snorkel Thingy McLaren are supposed to be running, the team was expected to be much faster. However, there are stories floating around the internet that McLaren compromised their qualifying by raising the ride height so that the car will run better with a heavy fuel load tomorrow. I can't verify it, but I would not be surprised if McLaren and other teams were in fact doing this...

Sutil did a great job getting the Force India into the top 10 – and the same can be said for Kubica, especially after the apparently poor pace of the Renault in testing.

Sebastian Vettel surprised all but David Coulthard by getting pole position today with the Ferraris not far behind. Christian Horner admitted that they had not run an honest low-fuel lap in testing and so the first time they had done so was in fact in qualifying today. Has Adrian Newey produced another rocket ship?

One thing worth noting is that the Q3 times are generally slower than Q2 – implying that the drivers would not or could not drive to the limits of the cars.

Let us now look at the amount of laps run in each session to see how the drivers approached the different sessions:

Image
Image
Image
Image

Note: The drivers are listed in order of qualifying classification.

The first observation worth making is that the number of laps decreases in each session run – in fact, only half the amount of laps were run in Q3 than Q1. This must be due to the drivers trying to use the tyres as little as possible because they have to start the race on them. Also, it does not seem to matter if your car is at the front or the back of the field – all the drivers do about the same amount of laps in a particular session.

So even though we are supposed to have low fuel qualifying, the rule makers have effectively ruined it with the parc fermé rules and the tyre rules – as the drivers are not able to push the cars as fast as they could do. A shame that this situation has arisen as there is nothing better than a full on battle to see who can get the absolute fastest lap time. Still, at least this means there is some uncertainty over who is fastest and who will make the best of it in tomorrow’s race.

But questions remain. Is what we saw in Q3 a true measure of the pace of the teams, or will things be different after the race tomorrow? Will a car like the Red Bull be fast and consistent enough to recreate this pace over the whole race distance or did McLaren make the right moves? Are Ferrari ready to pounce, or will Schumi surprise us all?

I know there are some that think that the changes to the circuit may make for a dull race tomorrow, but I am still optimistic and excited for a good race tomorrow. I am hopeful that the rule changes, driver changes, new teams and the new circuit will throw up a good race. I have a feeling that although the Red Bull is fast and that Vettel is great when leading from the front that they will fade away and the McLarens will come good. I think that although Button struggled today that his smoothness and consistency will pay off for him in the long run. Also I think that Ferrari look very strong and that Schumacher will surprise us.

I think the HRT will probably not finish, maybe the Virgins won’t either, but the Lotus have a better chance (I am relying on testing form again though). Hopefully Force India and Williams will score points too…

Let me know your predictions and your comments on the post – as I’m always keen to hear from you. Enjoy the race tomorrow :D

//RubberGoat
http://f1numbers.wordpress.com/

kalinka
kalinka
9
Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 00:01
Location: Hungary

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Some top speeds in qualifying :

1 Jenson Button McLaren 313.7 km/h
2 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 310.8
3 Adrian Sutil Force India 310.3
4 Vitantonio Liuzzi Force India 308.8
5 Robert Kubica Renault 308.8
6 Vitaly Petrov Renault 308.5
7 Nico Hulkenberg Williams 307.9
8 Karun Chandhok HRT 307.4
9 Felipe Massa Ferrari 307.3
10 Bruno Senna HRT 306.6
11 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 306.2

It's clear that HRT's result is due to serious lack of downforce. But McLaren didn't finish that low. So the question is : Why they can't compromise their setup and go for more downforce for the middle section. Obviously they have about 6-7 km/h on Ferraris on straight. They can in theory go for an exact top speed as rivals ( 306-307 km/h) with more downforce. Please comment on that!

christopher.mahlon
christopher.mahlon
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Joined: 26 Sep 2009, 22:54

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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This is a pretty fantastic breakdown of the numbers, thanks.

Anyone else wondering how much HRT can knock down that gap? They took a couple seconds out of the gap from yesterday, does anyone think they can find at least one more second of pace tomorrow?

As regards Virgin and Lotus-- HRT, too, I guess-- how fast do you guys think they'll be able to make up pace on the rest of the field this year? Will we see a few tenths taken out of the gap tomorrow?

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ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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segedunum wrote:
ringo wrote:I see no problems after Q3, the main obstacle was a bump in turn 6.
It was a lot more than that.
What is also good is that the car is in the second row. Hamilton is not the guy to line up behind guys in front of him. That Mclaren will be jumping into P1 come tomorrow and will take control of the race from their. losing time in sector 2 wont even be a problem, as long as they have the top speed on the straights, he wont be passed by any cars making time in sector 2.
Hmmmmmm. If they had KERS, which is what ultimately saved them last year, and they could use it off the line then that might be somewhat plausible, but that just seems like straw clutching really. T
KERS from third row maybe, the second row is not impossible, especially when the Mecedes powerplant is there and the possibility of driver error. Pole is also on the outside, the inside cars can dip in on the first turn, straw clutching is not a bad thing. :mrgreen:
They're not going to get that this year. In addition, their lack of speed and the tyre degredation is such that they're unlikely to keep cars that are the thick-end of a second faster than them behind for very long should they somehow miraculously find themselves at the front.
Lack of speed? remember the cars are going to be on high fuel, we don't know who has the speed at the start. It's also easy to keep 1 second faster cars behind. It's the perfect track to do so, now that the new part is added in. Damage could be dealt early out before the RB6 finds it sweet spot.
The critical part is the the first few laps and the pitstops. If the Mclaren is ahead and still 1 second slower (i really doubt it would be that slow on high fuel) Vettel cannot pass The BOSS or even the ferraris.
Not because he is a poor passer, but because passing happens on the high speed parts of the track here, where the Mclaren has the top speed advantage.
Not going to happen.
Your theory may be true coming down to the end when the tanks empty again, but it all depends on the condition of the tyres and reliability when that happens.
They've then got to keep ahead through the stops which without refuelling they are unlikely to do. As soon as a faster car gets any clear air, that's it, because fuel differences won't slow them down. That's how it works now.
True, but it's possible the faster car may not be the fastest at whatever time they chose to pit early out on the softs; some are saying the softs are good for 10 laps?
Remeber we don't know how well the redbull's run heavy. Fuel differences will slow them from the beginning as it relates to who runs well heavy.

Anyway let's stop this back and forth. Your on a high because your team pull through with the pole :mrgreen: Come tomorrow we will see who bites the Bahrain dust!!!
For Sure!!

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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ringo wrote:KERS from third row maybe, the second row is not impossible, especially when the Mecedes powerplant is there and the possibility of driver error.
They don't have KERS now, so the notion that they will jump everyone at the start and get into the lead from there is rather wishful.
Lack of speed? remember the cars are going to be on high fuel, we don't know who has the speed at the start. It's also easy to keep 1 second faster cars behind.
They're simply not going to jump and then keep cars behind them that are over a second per lap faster, and through tyre stops where they can't use fuel differences to stay ahead. It's just not going to happen. McLaren's tyres will be destroyed before lap 10 even if the first part of that were to come true and they then won't be able to keep crap behind them. Even when they put 160 kilos of fuel in the car, no amount of balance improvement is going to make that performance deficit go away.

There is just no conceivably feasible scenario that you can engineer that will transpire in a win or even a positive result for McLaren. They are simply miles behind. The body language of absolutely everyone in the team tells you that as well.
Anyway let's stop this back and forth. Your on a high because your team pull through with the pole :mrgreen: Come tomorrow we will see who bites the Bahrain dust!!!
They're not my team. I just called their pace in testing and their favourable position from last year with a solid car as I saw it. I don't exactly want a boring anti-climax. The only hope really is that Ferrari can be better over a race distance and overcome any raw performance the Red Bull has in any given lap. Either that or be more reliable. I think that will be the Red Bull's achilles heel rather than tyre issues.

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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HRT is a muppet team, with muppet drivers, steel breaks, steel suspension? Need I say more?
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Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Bahrain GP 2010

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godlameroso wrote:HRT is a muppet team, with muppet drivers, steel breaks, steel suspension? Need I say more?
Steel does break, indeed. However, you do need to say more. There have been pictures shown in the HRT thread proving how they are actually running CF suspension. Furthermore, I'd really like to know the points in which you base the opinion that Bruno Senna is a muppet. Karun Chandok, although by no means a motorsport ace, looks like a nice chap and, even though my sight is not 20/20, I didn't see any threads directing his arms or, god forbid, his eyebrows.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr