Blown Diffuser??

[speedsense]

I doubt the other teams will be able to make full use of the EBD before the end of the season.
There is little track test time to fine tune the drivability.
RB should hold onto the advantage.
If they do not take both titles it will be driver related.
Mind you McLaren have surprized me with their rapid improvment.

IMO, because Newey worked at Mclaren, and designed a EBD while employed there, Mclaren has more information on it than other teams. If anyone can get it right without testing, it most likely will be Mclaren.
According to Hamilton, at Silverstone, the car was really good with the EBD and he would have used it in the race. It was not to be, though it sounds like an easy fix, as it was just the floor that buckled and warped from the heat.
Brawn had problems with suspension, bodywork and floor. Much bigger problem.

[speedsense]

I'm pretty sure there are multiple input and output parameters to engine maps.

Inputs may include: Throttle actuator signal, ion current signal, selected gear, launch or race selection switch

Outputs may include: Throttle plate angle, ignition timing, fuel injector timing

The SECU program is likely to take care of the input variation while the different maps contain the three dimensional output variables.

Looking at the list of available sensors and actuators, the list is huge.
Many are duplicate, but a long list it is. Current technology of mapping is beyond 3D, with many components of control that can be added. For instance, just something as simple as a fuel map of engine RPM to throttle opening %, and adjusting the pulse rate (based on VE) per 50 rpm (commonly done on a dyno with load or a chassis dyno with drivetrain, tires and load) all according to Lamda and egt per clylinder. As you can see this "simple" map is massive
The combinations and numbers of included parameters, is probably up there in the thousands.. depends on how the FIA allowed the software to be constructed and how many parameters the maps can include.
Without actually seeing the software of the ECU, and with the number of combinations possible (looking at the sensor list) a guess probably won't be right.
And to top that off, the agrument/condition list and where those get inputed, puts the "odds" of figuring it out way up there.
In the list of all the guys in racing that specifically deal with racing ECU's to the "masses", there are but a few that are very good with it and completely understand it. Most of these guys have been in it for several years learning the craft. The rest just make the basics work.
ECU specialists are among the highest paid people in racing. IMHO

[doopie2you]

Would the Blown Diffuser still work next year? When The Double Deck Diffuser will be banned? I don't really know how the Blown Diffuser actually works but,I would like to know if teams can use it next year?

[marcush.]

I'm pretty sure there are multiple input and output parameters to engine maps.

Inputs may include: Throttle actuator signal, ion current signal, selected gear, launch or race selection switch

Outputs may include: Throttle plate angle, ignition timing, fuel injector timing

The SECU program is likely to take care of the input variation while the different maps contain the three dimensional output variables.

Looking at the list of available sensors and actuators, the list is huge.
Many are duplicate, but a long list it is. Current technology of mapping is beyond 3D, with many components of control that can be added. For instance, just something as simple as a fuel map of engine RPM to throttle opening %, and adjusting the pulse rate (based on VE) per 50 rpm (commonly done on a dyno with load or a chassis dyno with drivetrain, tires and load) all according to Lamda and egt per clylinder. As you can see this "simple" map is massive
The combinations and numbers of included parameters, is probably up there in the thousands.. depends on how the FIA allowed the software to be constructed and how many parameters the maps can include.
Without actually seeing the software of the ECU, and with the number of combinations possible (looking at the sensor list) a guess probably won't be right.
And to top that off, the agrument/condition list and where those get inputed, puts the "odds" of figuring it out way up there.
In the list of all the guys in racing that specifically deal with racing ECU's to the "masses", there are but a few that are very good with it and completely understand it. Most of these guys have been in it for several years learning the craft. The rest just make the basics work.
ECU specialists are among the highest paid people in racing. IMHO

brings up the question :would Renault allow REDBULL to create their own Engine maps?? Does REDBULL even have the possibilities to do so?

How is this situation treted in F1 with customer engines....I would have thought that engines are more or less a black box to the team and anythin to do with the engine is executed by the engine manafacturers personel dedicated to the team...

[F1_eng]

"IMO, because Newey worked at Mclaren, and designed a EBD while employed there, Mclaren has more information on it than other teams. If anyone can get it right without testing, it most likely will be Mclaren.
According to Hamilton, at Silverstone, the car was really good with the EBD and he would have used it in the race. It was not to be, though it sounds like an easy fix, as it was just the floor that buckled and warped from the heat.
Brawn had problems with suspension, bodywork and floor. Much bigger problem."

How can you say that McLaren's car was really good with it? They barely managed stayed on the track.
There was no issue with the device on the Mercedes car at Silverstone, how do you come to the conclusion of a bigger problem?

speedsense, as an aside, an F1 engine calibration method and system is very very simple compared to a production car. If anyone thought that is was purely a 3D map then, they don't know the first thing about calibration. It's hundereds of maps for various sensors and actuator strategies, many of these being interpolated live within the ECU, correction maps which are them-selves corrected from other maps, damage prediction metrics, transient behaviour and correction metrics, etc.

There isn't really an ECU specialist, they would be called control systems engineers, electronics engineers, software engineers.

Haha, are you joking about Red Bull calibrating their own engine?

[speedsense]

"IMO, because Newey worked at Mclaren, and designed a EBD while employed there, Mclaren has more information on it than other teams. If anyone can get it right without testing, it most likely will be Mclaren.
According to Hamilton, at Silverstone, the car was really good with the EBD and he would have used it in the race. It was not to be, though it sounds like an easy fix, as it was just the floor that buckled and warped from the heat.
Brawn had problems with suspension, bodywork and floor. Much bigger problem."

How can you say that McLaren's car was really good with it? They barely managed stayed on the track.
There was no issue with the device on the Mercedes car at Silverstone, how do you come to the conclusion of a bigger problem?

Based on what Hamilton commented afterwards, his car felt really good and if he could he would use it in the race."

With Mercedes, I left off, in their first attempt with it they had many more problems to overcome...

speedsense, as an aside, an F1 engine calibration method and system is very very simple compared to a production car. If anyone thought that is was purely a 3D map then, they don't know the first thing about calibration. It's hundereds of maps for various sensors and actuator strategies, many of these being interpolated live within the ECU, correction maps which are them-selves corrected from other maps, damage prediction metrics, transient behaviour and correction metrics, etc.

I said thousands not hundreds and don't think I implied that one is more complicated than another. If anything, the street has much to control compared to a racing ECU. Nor do I believe that I implied that "is was purely a 3D map then, they don't know the first thing about calibration." Calibration of the attached sensors is far different than altering the programing, that the program allows you to alter, or setting up a 3D map. I've had my head in enough of them (3 different types of them) and they have all worked great and as expected and so far haven't blown a motor up, do to something I did.

There isn't really an ECU specialist, they would be called control systems engineers, electronics engineers, software engineers.

When a guy makes 5k a day mainly dealing with an ECU and at times the other controllers... I'd say he's a specialist in ECU's. He ain't fixing or setting up the DA system, just the ECU. Call him what you want, he's specializing in ECU's and getting paid for it.

Haha, are you joking about Red Bull calibrating their own engine?

????

[speedsense]

I'm pretty sure there are multiple input and output parameters to engine maps.

Inputs may include: Throttle actuator signal, ion current signal, selected gear, launch or race selection switch

Outputs may include: Throttle plate angle, ignition timing, fuel injector timing

The SECU program is likely to take care of the input variation while the different maps contain the three dimensional output variables.

Looking at the list of available sensors and actuators, the list is huge.
Many are duplicate, but a long list it is. Current technology of mapping is beyond 3D, with many components of control that can be added. For instance, just something as simple as a fuel map of engine RPM to throttle opening %, and adjusting the pulse rate (based on VE) per 50 rpm (commonly done on a dyno with load or a chassis dyno with drivetrain, tires and load) all according to Lamda and egt per clylinder. As you can see this "simple" map is massive
The combinations and numbers of included parameters, is probably up there in the thousands.. depends on how the FIA allowed the software to be constructed and how many parameters the maps can include.
Without actually seeing the software of the ECU, and with the number of combinations possible (looking at the sensor list) a guess probably won't be right.
And to top that off, the agrument/condition list and where those get inputed, puts the "odds" of figuring it out way up there.
In the list of all the guys in racing that specifically deal with racing ECU's to the "masses", there are but a few that are very good with it and completely understand it. Most of these guys have been in it for several years learning the craft. The rest just make the basics work.
ECU specialists are among the highest paid people in racing. IMHO

brings up the question :would Renault allow REDBULL to create their own Engine maps?? Does REDBULL even have the possibilities to do so?

How is this situation treted in F1 with customer engines....I would have thought that engines are more or less a black box to the team and anythin to do with the engine is executed by the engine manafacturers personel dedicated to the team...

Just to get the motor to run on the dyno, a map has to be generated. If similar maps according to the build are available, then putting one in that will work and massaging it, is probably what happens. It's probably sent with a standard set of maps for that peritcular motor. I don't think Renault has any idea, how much those maps are changed by each teams doing. You can probably bet that if RB is doing something with the timing and their mapping routines, Renault's engine builder doesn't know what they are doing.....

There's enough room, to alter a lot, by the team's themselves...

[autogyro]

5K an hour for an ECU specialist is way to much money even in F1.
The days are long gone when computer experts sat at meetings with monitors covered in figures pretending to be clever.
I confirmed that over 50 percent of them in the paddock of one team at Le Mans in 1989 were doing the square root of FA.
Dont tell me 'You go do it then' either.
I cant but I know a man that can!

Just like in aero and tyres, if the data is not all available by now, then the job is not being done properly.

[speedsense]

5K an hour for an ECU specialist is way to much money even in F1.
The days are long gone when computer experts sat at meetings with monitors covered in figures pretending to be clever.
I confirmed that over 50 percent of them in the paddock of one team at Le Mans in 1989 were doing the square root of FA.
Dont tell me 'You go do it then' either.
I cant but I know a man that can!

Just like in aero and tyres, if the data is not all available by now, then the job is not being done properly.

Actually from what I hear, most of the people in F1 are underpaid, as there's a list as long your arm of people waiting to replace most of the jobs in F1. Not true in all forms of racing though. Seems the ones that leave F1 make more money, than they did when they where in it. F1 is stellar on a resume!!
It is the DA analysis guys (not just operation, but analysis) and the electronic up keep/setup/wiring guys that tend to earn the higher paid scale. The one job that has the highest financial risk, is the one where your poking around and reprogramming an ECU, get one number wrong and in the wrong place... and bang, 60K down the drain..... enough team owners have gone that route and would rather pay someone who is "clever" and has a reputation as being such....than the ones that pretend to be clever, it only takes one ECU and one motor to prove your faking it....

[F1_eng]

Please tell me you have been joking in the last few posts?

I don't know if it has been lost in translation, but calibration is the job of calibrating the whole engine package, not just sensors. Calibration engineer is a person that "maps" engines, not just setting up sensors.

Haha, 5 thousand a day?? Maybe things are different over in America, but no-one in F1 at engineer level makes 1,500,000 in a year, especially people just dealing with control units.

I think it shows the level you opperate at when the best thing about your engine work is "so far haven't blown a motor up, do to something I did." That should be a basis for the most basic level of engine mapping, it's what is being done above that which seperates the best from the rest.

And I can tell you now, that Red Bull don't do any mapping of the engine themselves. Again, it shows the level you've been involve at because you can't just make a change to these ECUs without it being logged, and I'm sure that Red Bull wouldn't want to make a change to the ECU. These engines and control units go back to Renault on a regular basis and they are constantly monitored by a load Renault engineers during races.

[marcush.]

Please tell me you have been joking in the last few posts?

I don't know if it has been lost in translation, but calibration is the job of calibrating the whole engine package, not just sensors. Calibration engineer is a person that "maps" engines, not just setting up sensors.

Haha, 5 thousand a day?? Maybe things are different over in America, but no-one in F1 at engineer level makes 1,500,000 in a year, especially people just dealing with control units.

I think it shows the level you opperate at when the best thing about your engine work is "so far haven't blown a motor up, do to something I did." That should be a basis for the most basic level of engine mapping, it's what is being done above that which seperates the best from the rest.

And I can tell you now, that Red Bull don't do any mapping of the engine themselves. Again, it shows the level you've been involve at because you can't just make a change to these ECUs without it being logged, and I'm sure that Red Bull wouldn't want to make a change to the ECU. These engines and control units go back to Renault on a regular basis and they are constantly monitored by a load Renault engineers during races.

If in LMP the customer not even is firing up the engine with no Engine supplier personel present having connected his laptop ,I ´m pretty sure that this is even more restraint with something as delicate as a F1 engine.
I might believe they have asked Renault to supply something like that as a feature...and Renault may have done it to retain this important customer as well ..
but RB doing it without renault ....I can´t see this really ...
i happened to see the documantation of available parameters for OEM ECU wich was an unbelievable lot of pages .....it was not hundreds it was thousands of pages...

[Richard]

Instead of conjecture, have a look at the actual SECU specification. The interesting stuff starts at page 40.

The SECU specification can be downloaded from the FIA website http://argent.fia.com/web/appeloffre.ns ... penelement

[speedsense]

Please tell me you have been joking in the last few posts?

I don't know if it has been lost in translation, but calibration is the job of calibrating the whole engine package, not just sensors. Calibration engineer is a person that "maps" engines, not just setting up sensors.

Haha, 5 thousand a day?? Maybe things are different over in America, but no-one in F1 at engineer level makes 1,500,000 in a year, especially people just dealing with control units.

I think it shows the level you opperate at when the best thing about your engine work is "so far haven't blown a motor up, do to something I did." That should be a basis for the most basic level of engine mapping, it's what is being done above that which seperates the best from the rest.

And I can tell you now, that Red Bull don't do any mapping of the engine themselves. Again, it shows the level you've been involve at because you can't just make a change to these ECUs without it being logged, and I'm sure that Red Bull wouldn't want to make a change to the ECU. These engines and control units go back to Renault on a regular basis and they are constantly monitored by a load Renault engineers during races.

Have you ever opened an ECU by connecting a computer to it and made changes?

Engine mapping is an engine builders job, they have people trained to support their engine program. ECU companies have people who are trained in their product and know the software in and out. They support the engine builders and the engine support, and the teams personel as well. Each team has one, two or three electronic people of their own, who also are supported by them.
The very few people I know of making that kind of money, are people trained on a certain ECU and attached modules, that no longer work for the company but are consultants on their own working in a series or couple of them that use that a certain ECU as a spec ECU. They work on race weekends and test days, and have multiple customers in one day and no they don't make 1.5 a year. A healthy living yes, millions no...
I too am a consultant and have multiple clients, in many series, types of cars. In one year I may contract with three different series and teams totaling upwards of 40 races. Though DA is my expertise, learning to manage, maintain ECU's has become part of it, depending on the client.
As far as my level, let's just say I'm paid very well, self employed, have no trouble finding work and I've never had to advertise, and for twenty years have never had a job other than racing...and I might add, have never only worked for one team in a year. As long as my clients are happy with my "level" , that's all I care about.

So it begs the question, as you seem to imply you know so much about Red Bull, do you work for them, work with them? If no, do you work in F1? If no, do you work in racing?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Would the Blown Diffuser still work next year? When The Double Deck Diffuser will be banned? I don't really know how the Blown Diffuser actually works but,I would like to know if teams can use it next year?

This question appears unanswered, So I will try again.

Will teams go for the blown diffuser with the demise of the DD diffuser?

[scarbs]

Yes the simpler diffusers will still be benefited by a exhaust blowing over the top of them. They can't have the Red bull slot, but most of the new teams adopting EBDs havent gone for this solution.