Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[turbof1]

FRIC is also used by Lotus and both systems were designed by Bell...Lotus is the best when it comes to tires..so you know that ain't the issue...

Except they still have roll bars and springs attached. Mercedes is the only one driving fric-only.

Honest question - is that a speculative claim or is that a common knowledge statement?
Honestly, I don't know much about the Lotus' suspension other than they use FRIC designed by Bell which he brought over to Merc

Scarbs mentioned it in The Racer's Edge.

[krisfx]

Could their rear tyre wear not be an indication of their coanda being a little too far out?

Hamilton mentioned it in an interview that the exhausts commonly heat up the rears and that mercedes may do that a little more.

[JMN]

I do like the idea that they have to carry more fuel though, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if we can identify something about the car that requires that – and it's not just the engine, as FI are clearly better at the start of races (relatively) than them.

Cooling has historically been an issue for MGP unlike both FI and McLaren. If memory serves we had a discussion last year about MGP being forced to run richer fuel mixes for cooling purposes. This would in turn point to sidepod design, radiator setup efficiency and internal aero. While the pods have improved a lot this year, they are still quite bulky.

[Juzh]

FRIC is also used by Lotus and both systems were designed by Bell...Lotus is the best when it comes to tires..so you know that ain't the issue...

Except they still have roll bars and springs attached. Mercedes is the only one driving fric-only.

I thought this too until Nico dropped out of China claiming a snapped rear roll bar. Hm. It was Scarbs' article on the FRIC system that made it sound like the Merc didn't have one of these.

As for those saying the car has LONG way to go... the fact that we watched a W04 kick an RB9's ass today tells us that they've also come a long way too. Credit where it's due. It's great to see improvement and I expect more to come. Credit to Hamilton too of course, but I don't think the W03 or W02 could have beaten the RB7 or RB8 with the same two drivers.

Best merc finished 35,2s behind best red bull who was coasting almost troughout entire race. Not sure what ass they kicked exactly? Webber was compromised by an aggressive undercut strategy which ultimately failed in the end as he had no grip left on his car.

[CHIUNDA]

Best merc finished 35,2s behind best red bull who was coasting almost troughout entire race. Not sure what ass they kicked exactly? Webber was compromised by an aggressive undercut strategy which ultimately failed in the end as he had no grip left on his car.

Strategy mistake or not it is still a Red Bull that was beat by a 5-place gearbox penalty stricken Mercedes. Its hard to sanitize these comparisons. There can only be one winner and for each one of them, there is always a reason why the other 21 cars were behind.

[turbof1]

You guys think with the european spring/summer season coming up the mercedes will have better temperatures for its tyre window?

[danielk]

Mercedes clearly struggled in the heat, i assume as pointed out by others this is directly related to their exhaust configuration.

They clearly have allot of work to get this right.

Its my opinion that its for the exact same exhaust configuration reasons that they are slow at the beginning of the race and get faster as the race goes on. We saw the same in all races so far. Also explaining why they are so quick in qualy but terrible in the race.

It seems to get the benefit of the exhaust blowing they are having to blow much harder than other teams possibly? Using more fuel and meaning they have to start the race heavier than cars around them meaning they get mugged on the first few laps.

Remember last year when they still had the old exhausts on? they would always make places up at the start. They didnt have the overall pace but it seems they were lighter on fuel at the beginning of the races.

Now they have gained overall pace. But only on low fuel. when fuel levels are higher they are behind everyone else, so can only assume they are heavier.

They did implement the exhaust system much later than the others and a clearly a long way behind the other teams in understanding it.

Its well known that Renault cars consume less fuel than the others but it seems last year mclaren where not hampered quite as much and they have the same engines. So i assume it is a fixable problem, or it may require the drivers to change there driving style to consume less fuel?

[Faustino]

On a full tank of fuel, the car handles like a pig. They are still virtually slower than the whole field in this regard.

Secondly, Rosberg was nothing more than a surrender monkey yesterday. He had a poor formation lap where he noticeably did far less weaving and getting heat into tyres than all around him. This is part of the reason Vettel was able to get past him so easily.

The car is still definitely a step up from last year but they need to find something on the car where they can catch up with the field.

I've never seen a driver go from Pole Position to 9th/10th without having a major mechanical problem.

[Juzh]

Best merc finished 35,2s behind best red bull who was coasting almost troughout entire race. Not sure what ass they kicked exactly? Webber was compromised by an aggressive undercut strategy which ultimately failed in the end as he had no grip left on his car.

Strategy mistake or not it is still a Red Bull that was beat by a 5-place gearbox penalty stricken Mercedes. Its hard to sanitize these comparisons. There can only be one winner and for each one of them, there is always a reason why the other 21 cars were behind.

Red bull got beaten in the past, yet there was no such fuss at the time. Can't see a reason why there should be now imo. I'd take zero comfort from beating a clearly underperforming webber for 5th.

[turbof1]

Mercedes clearly struggled in the heat, i assume as pointed out by others this is directly related to their exhaust configuration.

They clearly have allot of work to get this right.

Its my opinion that its for the exact same exhaust configuration reasons that they are slow at the beginning of the race and get faster as the race goes on. We saw the same in all races so far. Also explaining why they are so quick in qualy but terrible in the race.

It seems to get the benefit of the exhaust blowing they are having to blow much harder than other teams possibly? Using more fuel and meaning they have to start the race heavier than cars around them meaning they get mugged on the first few laps.

Remember last year when they still had the old exhausts on? they would always make places up at the start. They didnt have the overall pace but it seems they were lighter on fuel at the beginning of the races.

Now they have gained overall pace. But only on low fuel. when fuel levels are higher they are behind everyone else, so can only assume they are heavier.

They did implement the exhaust system much later than the others and a clearly a long way behind the other teams in understanding it.

Its well known that Renault cars consume less fuel than the others but it seems last year mclaren where not hampered quite as much and they have the same engines. So i assume it is a fixable problem, or it may require the drivers to change there driving style to consume less fuel?

I don't think it is so much the driver. Remember, Hamilton came from Mclaren and never had similar issues there. I also don't think they are able to blow harder (no pun intended, by lack of better words...); these engines are frozen, and with off-throttle blowing banned, I don't see how Mercedes would consume more fuel then for instance mclaren. Maybe they are running a high fuel mix for a bigger period of the race; but it's clearly not the ultimate pace differentiator as in qualy everybody runs their highest fuel mix, and mercedes is for the moment beating red bull at that. I think they are more prone to underfueling the car.

I dearly hope they aren't going to make the same mistake as last year, where they completely underdeveloped the car to try to get on top of their tyres. Once in the window, the mercedes has great pace in the race. It is there, it is a matter of getting the window somewhat bigger.

[Unc1e_M0nty]

On a full tank of fuel, the car handles like a pig. They are still virtually slower than the whole field in this regard.

Yesterday maybe but I'd say they've held their own on most starts this year, I can't remember them falling back like this in any other race.

Secondly, Rosberg was nothing more than a surrender monkey yesterday. He had a poor formation lap where he noticeably did far less weaving and getting heat into tyres than all around him. This is part of the reason Vettel was able to get past him so easily.

Vettel didn't pass Rosberg till lap 3 or 4 was it ?, I'd say that's more than long enough to heat up the tyres, Vettel was much quicker than everyone yesterday full stop.
I thought Rosberg fought really hard for his place, so much so that he ruined his tyres in the process,

[Vasconia]

On a full tank of fuel, the car handles like a pig. They are still virtually slower than the whole field in this regard.

Secondly, Rosberg was nothing more than a surrender monkey yesterday. He had a poor formation lap where he noticeably did far less weaving and getting heat into tyres than all around him. This is part of the reason Vettel was able to get past him so easily.

The car is still definitely a step up from last year but they need to find something on the car where they can catch up with the field.

I've never seen a driver go from Pole Position to 9th/10th without having a major mechanical problem.

Two quite worrying conclusions from the yesterdays race:

1. This car, The WO4, still suffers a lot with high temperatures and full fuel, as it happened with the previous cars, this is sad, annoying and incredible at the same time. Lauda and Wolf said this problem was part of the past, what a lie.

2. Rosberg is fast as hell, but mentally very weak, when things go wrong his performance falls irremediably into mediocrity.

[Maelstrom]

On a full tank of fuel, the car handles like a pig. They are still virtually slower than the whole field in this regard.

Yesterday maybe but I'd say they've held their own on most starts this year, I can't remember them falling back like this in any other race.

Secondly, Rosberg was nothing more than a surrender monkey yesterday. He had a poor formation lap where he noticeably did far less weaving and getting heat into tyres than all around him. This is part of the reason Vettel was able to get past him so easily.

Vettel didn't pass Rosberg till lap 3 or 4 was it ?, I'd say that's more than long enough to heat up the tyres, Vettel was much quicker than everyone yesterday full stop.
I thought Rosberg fought really hard for his place, so much so that he ruined his tyres in the process,

Yep.. he was quite aggressive throughout the race and thats probably why he needed one more stop than Lewis. Without that he could have been in the top 5 atleast. Rosberg is all about aggression and the current car/tyres can't handle that. He needs to learn to drive conservatively at times too.

[kooleracer]

I'M almost certain Merc has a fuel consumption issue. The need more fuel because there coanda exhaust needs more fuel to energize the coanda effect. The car is quick on low fuel because the extra 0.26KG the need for a single lap doesn't show in lap time. But if you need 0.26KG more fuel for 57 laps. That means you are carrying 15KG (MSC said that were 15KG heavier). Carbon Dev Racing calculated (forum user) that 1kg of fuel is worth about 0.09 of laptime.

1 lap 15KG extra fuel = = 0.0932 extra laptime * 15KG= 1.4 (1.398) Sec slower a lap. Nico Rosberg did 1.32.3 and Vettel did 1:32.5. So the RB9 and Merc W04 are really close on low fuel (no 15KG Fuel penalty).

So if you look at the average laptimes you can clearly see it back in laptimes. Nico also suggested they have a good car and that really true, a bad car can get pole. Rosberg was fastest in every single sector of this track. So the highspeed advantage is also no true Force India fast the fastest in the speedtrap but their race pace was still good. The car is really good but they need to sort out how they can rid of the extra fuel ballast during the race. Nico was fighting during most of the race so the better comparison is with Lewis both he and Vettel were driving the most part of the race in clean air. On the first couple of stints losses 1.2 and 1.6 average. On the first 2 stints Lewis losses 1.455 secs on average. If MSC was right that Merc is 15KG heavier this means that merc is loosing 1.398 a lap, thats pretty close to the 1.455 the lose on average during the first 2 stints. Stint 3 and 4 the Merc burns more fuel and the extra ballast is coming down. In stint 3 and 4 Lewis is getting faster and faster and the average lap loss decreases because the extra ballast penalty gets lower and lower. In stint 4 Lewis losses 0.1sec on average on a lap comparing to Vettel. Also the underfuelling in Malaysia is a sign that every drop extra hurts the Merc, that why they got in to trouble in Sepang. Ross gambled and thought they would use less because of change of rain. The Merc Also looks really heavy compared to other cars in the beginning of the race. Merc is doing something wrong with their coanda exhaust compared to FI and McLaren. The need more fuel compared to them. Or the need better engine maps that saves more fuel. Because i really don't think the tyres are the problem i really think the tire deg is an outcome of the heavier car the run the race compared to other.

Vettel - Hamilton
Av. Lap Time 1 1:42.508 1:43.803 -1.295

Av. Lap Time 2 1:41.595 1:43.210 -1.615

Av. Lap Time 3 1:40.826 1:41.271 -0.445

Av. Lap Time 4 1:39.830 1:39.939 -0.109

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vettel - Rosberg
Av. Lap Time 1 1:42.508 1:43.505 -0.997
Av. Lap Time 2 1:41.595 1:43.160 -1.565
Av. Lap Time 3 1:40.826 1:42.161 -1.335
Av. Lap Time 4 1:39.830 1:41.338 -1.508



renault chart. Merc engines need more fuel, plus that the W04 needs extra fuel compared to others like MSC said.

Look at the chart The races the W03 was competitive where the race with less fuel consumption and less fuel throttle. It's no coincidence that China and Monaco were good races for Merc. 2 totally different tracks low speed and high speed the only thing they got in common is fuel consumption and full throttle this means less fuel less, extra balast and stress for tyres. If you look at SPA last year. That was a horrible race 60sec behind winner. If you look 1 weekend later at Monza. Less Fuel and more competitive.

-SPA MSC 1.5 of pole 3.15L fuel per Lap 72% full throthle and 7KM track.
-Next weekend at Monza 72 full throthle 5.7KM and 2.5L per lap, the Merc was only 0.5 Sec of pole.
So SPA is the worst track for Merc.

-more fuel
-longest track ( effect of extra fuel bigger, plus high speed corners with heavier car).

I can't believe that its the setup, with cleaver guys like costa,bell, willis etc. There is more then enough knowledge how to set a car up. It's simply the extra weight that, puts more stress in the tyres.

If the new Merc V6 engine is on par with the Renault of Ferrari V6. The W05 will be a real contender. The guys have builled 2 quick cars (W03/W04), the W05 should be faster again. Without extra fuel i really think Merc will be far more competitive in the race's. Merc should really concentrate on being on pole in Monaco because that is a race they can win this year. No mistakes in Q3 and they should win the race. Hope the bring some updates for Spain and still the quickest on a single lap because the next race will be Monaco. Also Canada and Singapore will be good if i'am correct. But Singapore i'm not so sure because of devolpement the car could be slower as others devolp beter during the year. I really can't see Mercedes challenge for race wins if the fuel issue isn't sorted. No car setup will disguise 13-15KG of extra fuel i'am a afraid.

[LHamilton]

Im wondering if Merecedes should try Red Bulls exhaust solution. It seems to be more easier to get the exhaust flow where you want it, and not to close to the tires. Which could be a factor for Mercedes.

But for sure, it looks like they are having trouble on high fuel.