2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Xyz22]

In 2020 and 2021 there was no particular pace difference between qualifying and race, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Didn't Leclerc put it on pole in Baku and Monaco in '21? They definitely still showed signs of overperforming in qualifying relative to race pace.

Exactly. In 2020 the SF 1000 was actually top midfield in quali but got completely destroyed by Renault / McL in race trim in multiple tracks (in some cases the opposite happened like in Turkey or Silverstone, but they were outliers. Leclerc himself hilariously said, "We have no idea why we are so competitive in Silverstone").

LM10 you should check the avg gap Ferrari had in quali and compare it to the one they had in the race. It's not pretty

The last time Ferrari performed better in race trim compared to quali trim i think was in 2017 with the SF 70H.

[f1316]

I often think there’s a part of this (certainly not all or even the majority) that we might call the “Trulli effect” - ie both Charles and Carlos are very good qualifiers and so over flatter the car in quali in a way that’s just sustainable in races (at least not with current car/tyre/fuel formula - back in the day, someone like Michael’s strength was being able to do 50 quali laps in a race; current tyres don’t allow that kind of pushing).

If you think about it, Carlos has always been very good in quali - he out-qualified Max in their one season together (but was generally not as good in race pace/craft) and similarly vs Lando who we now know to be a very good qualifier. This is further emphasised by the fact that Charles - who is arguably the best qualifier in F1 - was often only a tenth or so quicker than Carlos in quali last year.

Charles is more capable of sustaining this level over long distances - I suspect if he raced in, say, 2004, he would be great at being on the limit for race distances (the ‘feel for the limit’, occasionally going over it, is something I think he has in common with Michael, albeit Michael would generally save his errors for practice sessions) - but that kind of driving just isn’t possible with the Pirelli tyres and actually can lead to higher deg as he tries to keep up with a faster RB.

So tl:dr I suspect the delta between quali and race would be lower if you had a driver in one of the cars who was less good over one lap.

[AR3-GP]

In 2020 and 2021 there was no particular pace difference between qualifying and race, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Didn't Leclerc put it on pole in Baku and Monaco in '21? They definitely still showed signs of overperforming in qualifying relative to race pace.

Exactly. In 2020 the SF 1000 was actually top midfield in quali but got completely destroyed by Renault / McL in race trim in multiple tracks (in some cases the opposite happened like in Turkey or Silverstone, but they were outliers. Leclerc himself hilariously said, "We have no idea why we are so competitive in Silverstone").

LM10 you should check the avg gap Ferrari had in quali and compare it to the one they had in the race. It's not pretty

The last time Ferrari performed better in race trim compared to quali trim i think was in 2017 with the SF 70H.

Interesting that you go back to the SF70. I would have picked the launch spec SF71H. That was a great race car in the first half of the year (relative to the Merc) but maybe my memory is flattering it.

[Vinlarr89]

Yes the era in which Michael raced in also was very different in that he would elect to run a very fuel light trim, keep the car in an optimal window and generally stop more than the others but put 50 quali laps together.

Could Charles do that, I’m not sure he quite has the consistency tbh. He can put it on the line like probably few can if not anyone on the grid, and has some superb qualis, but for lap after lap like Michael used to I’m not sure.

Anyway. Needless comparison as it’s a different era. Right now, sacrificing some quali pace for race trim is where it’s at, especially to fend off the MB and AM threat if nothing else. I don’t know why, but I’m still convinced there’s a car in there somewhere, and I bet we find it with about 3 races to go!

[Schippke]

Interesting that nobody here thus far has mentioned the reports that apparently Ferrari 'Allegedly' has offered Lewis Hamilton a $40million a Year Contract.

I mean it does seem quite farfetched... why would Lewis move from a Team that isn't a match for Red Bull... to another team that is arguably less of a match for Red Bull? And would they honestly be willing to let Charles go (cannot see Sainz being replaced and having both Hamilton/Leclerc in the same team)... who would they get in 2 years when Lewis undoubtedly retires?

Most likely a ploy to get Mercedes to offer him a better deal for a 1-2 year extension...

[Seanspeed]

I mean it does seem quite farfetched

Well there's your answer. I dont think unfounded rumors are really worth spending time on.

[AR3-GP]

Interesting that nobody here thus far has mentioned the reports that apparently Ferrari 'Allegedly' has offered Lewis Hamilton a $40million a Year Contract.

Usually this kind of stuff is posted in the silly season thread. The news is hardly factual, let alone credible or logical...

[KimiRai]

Rencken: Why Ferrari could go the way of Williams

https://racingnews365.com/why-ferrari-c ... f-williams

[Xyz22]

I often think there’s a part of this (certainly not all or even the majority) that we might call the “Trulli effect” - ie both Charles and Carlos are very good qualifiers and so over flatter the car in quali in a way that’s just sustainable in races (at least not with current car/tyre/fuel formula - back in the day, someone like Michael’s strength was being able to do 50 quali laps in a race; current tyres don’t allow that kind of pushing).

If you think about it, Carlos has always been very good in quali - he out-qualified Max in their one season together (but was generally not as good in race pace/craft) and similarly vs Lando who we now know to be a very good qualifier. This is further emphasised by the fact that Charles - who is arguably the best qualifier in F1 - was often only a tenth or so quicker than Carlos in quali last year.

Charles is more capable of sustaining this level over long distances - I suspect if he raced in, say, 2004, he would be great at being on the limit for race distances (the ‘feel for the limit’, occasionally going over it, is something I think he has in common with Michael, albeit Michael would generally save his errors for practice sessions) - but that kind of driving just isn’t possible with the Pirelli tyres and actually can lead to higher deg as he tries to keep up with a faster RB.

So tl:dr I suspect the delta between quali and race would be lower if you had a driver in one of the cars who was less good over one lap.

This is not correct. It's absolutely clear that there is something wrong with the car in race trim.

This is not the first time something similar happened. Check out the 2013 Mercedes for instance:






Look at the difference between quali and race for Lewis and Nico. Lewis has always been considered a super consistent driver in the race and especially in a track like Spain.

The car accounts for probably 99% of the overall performance. You can be one of the best and still being demolished by drivers with similar level of skills or even lower if their car is faster.

[AR3-GP]

Rencken: Why Ferrari could go the way of Williams

https://racingnews365.com/why-ferrari-c ... f-williams

Dieter Rencken knows better than to publish this nonsense

[f1316]

I often think there’s a part of this (certainly not all or even the majority) that we might call the “Trulli effect” - ie both Charles and Carlos are very good qualifiers and so over flatter the car in quali in a way that’s just sustainable in races (at least not with current car/tyre/fuel formula - back in the day, someone like Michael’s strength was being able to do 50 quali laps in a race; current tyres don’t allow that kind of pushing).

If you think about it, Carlos has always been very good in quali - he out-qualified Max in their one season together (but was generally not as good in race pace/craft) and similarly vs Lando who we now know to be a very good qualifier. This is further emphasised by the fact that Charles - who is arguably the best qualifier in F1 - was often only a tenth or so quicker than Carlos in quali last year.

Charles is more capable of sustaining this level over long distances - I suspect if he raced in, say, 2004, he would be great at being on the limit for race distances (the ‘feel for the limit’, occasionally going over it, is something I think he has in common with Michael, albeit Michael would generally save his errors for practice sessions) - but that kind of driving just isn’t possible with the Pirelli tyres and actually can lead to higher deg as he tries to keep up with a faster RB.

So tl:dr I suspect the delta between quali and race would be lower if you had a driver in one of the cars who was less good over one lap.

This is not correct. It's absolutely clear that there is something wrong with the car in race trim.

This is not the first time something similar happened. Check out the 2013 Mercedes for instance:

https://external-preview.redd.it/wbTTkN ... 50696ac425

https://abload.de/img/screenshot2023-05-24autdkj.png


Look at the difference between quali and race for Lewis and Nico. Lewis has always been considered a super consistent driver in the race and especially in a track like Spain.

The car accounts for probably 99% of the overall performance. You can be one of the best and still being demolished by drivers with similar level of skills or even lower if their car is faster.

I literally said it’s likely not even the majority of the issue and acknowledged that most is the car. Are you telling me that there are no cases where a driver puts a car in a position on the grid it doesn’t belong only to slip back in the race comparatively?

FYI I’ve watched that 2013 GP probably at least 5 times start to finish - very familiar with the precedent. But I’m saying that these two drivers also have form as better qualifiers than racers and, as another data point, Jock Clear has talked about part of Leclerc’s tyre issue being with trying too hard to keep up with the RBs. I don’t think it’s not accurate to postulate that this is a contributing factor (even if not the primary one).

[JPBD1990]

Rencken: Why Ferrari could go the way of Williams

https://racingnews365.com/why-ferrari-c ... f-williams

Dieter Rencken knows better than to publish this nonsense

This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. Williams main problem was simply a lack of money. Does Ferrari have that problem? Clearly not, they’re making more than ever.

The only real problem I see is that they’re based outside the UK. I don’t understand why they didn’t (before the budget cap) setup offices in the UK also. Clearly not ideal, but they’ve got the cash and it would certainly overcome the biggest hurdle (imo) in attracting people to Ferrari. If staff had to move down the road from one team to a UK based Ferrari facility, instead of to an entirely different country where English is a second language, I see a lot more interest from the likes of Newey, etc.

[Xyz22]

I often think there’s a part of this (certainly not all or even the majority) that we might call the “Trulli effect” - ie both Charles and Carlos are very good qualifiers and so over flatter the car in quali in a way that’s just sustainable in races (at least not with current car/tyre/fuel formula - back in the day, someone like Michael’s strength was being able to do 50 quali laps in a race; current tyres don’t allow that kind of pushing).

If you think about it, Carlos has always been very good in quali - he out-qualified Max in their one season together (but was generally not as good in race pace/craft) and similarly vs Lando who we now know to be a very good qualifier. This is further emphasised by the fact that Charles - who is arguably the best qualifier in F1 - was often only a tenth or so quicker than Carlos in quali last year.

Charles is more capable of sustaining this level over long distances - I suspect if he raced in, say, 2004, he would be great at being on the limit for race distances (the ‘feel for the limit’, occasionally going over it, is something I think he has in common with Michael, albeit Michael would generally save his errors for practice sessions) - but that kind of driving just isn’t possible with the Pirelli tyres and actually can lead to higher deg as he tries to keep up with a faster RB.

So tl:dr I suspect the delta between quali and race would be lower if you had a driver in one of the cars who was less good over one lap.

This is not correct. It's absolutely clear that there is something wrong with the car in race trim.

This is not the first time something similar happened. Check out the 2013 Mercedes for instance:

https://external-preview.redd.it/wbTTkN ... 50696ac425

https://abload.de/img/screenshot2023-05-24autdkj.png


Look at the difference between quali and race for Lewis and Nico. Lewis has always been considered a super consistent driver in the race and especially in a track like Spain.

The car accounts for probably 99% of the overall performance. You can be one of the best and still being demolished by drivers with similar level of skills or even lower if their car is faster.

I literally said it’s likely not even the majority of the issue and acknowledged that most is the car. Are you telling me that there are no cases where a driver puts a car in a position on the grid it doesn’t belong only to slip back in the race comparatively?

FYI I’ve watched that 2013 GP probably at least 5 times start to finish - very familiar with the precedent. But I’m saying that these two drivers also have form as better qualifiers than racers and, as another data point, Jock Clear has talked about part of Leclerc’s tyre issue being with trying too hard to keep up with the RBs. I don’t think it’s not accurate to postulate that this is a contributing factor (even if not the primary one).

Sainz was considered to be a tyre whisperer before going to Ferrari and extremely consistent in race trim. Leclerc clearly struggled a bit with tyre management in his first few seasons in Formula 1 (even though he had a very good benchmark in Vettel) but he has showed tremendous speed when the car worked as intended. There is one major issue though, which is the fact that Ferrari cars most often than not didn't work correctly in race trim but only in quali trim. I'm sure Max, Lewis and others would perform very well in quali, but equally struggle in the race.

Again i don't see any issue with the drivers. Everyone would struggle with this car and especially this team.

[Juzh]

Rencken: Why Ferrari could go the way of Williams

https://racingnews365.com/why-ferrari-c ... f-williams

Dieter Rencken knows better than to publish this nonsense

Yeah, this one's not good. Any other journalist I don't click on this link but since it's Rencken I gave it a shot and I really wasn't expecting him to draw these nonsensical parallels and conclusions. Ferrari has got loads of cash at hand and is in no way similar to williams. Rest of the article is gibberish, very unlike R365...

[LM10]

In 2020 and 2021 there was no particular pace difference between qualifying and race, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Didn't Leclerc put it on pole in Baku and Monaco in '21? They definitely still showed signs of overperforming in qualifying relative to race pace.

While it might be true that there are similarities in regards of the discrepancy between qualifying and race pace, the reasoning behind that is totally different now.

The current rules obviously have got nothing in common with those prior to 2022. Ferrari’s big issue now is that they simply can’t generate the downforce they do with a low fuel car. This leads to many issues and eventually to a bad race pace. It’s neither a concept thing nor a choose. They need to tackle the problem of losing downforce as soon as the car is fueled heavily.