Red Bull RB9 Renault

[ringo]

Yeah the v10 was the pinnacle. I didn't really enjoy the sound of the v8s. They didn't scream out as much so the cars didnt seem to be on the limit.
However, 22,000 rpms from the v8 sounds awesome. It doesn't even sound like a piston engine to me at that speed. More like a jet or rocket.

[ringo]

I take it that vortices are the talk of the town?
It's not the big secret for redbull, or any advantage over the other cars.

In areo big effects come from big things. Little things only have small effects.
The only exception is when there is very high energy in a little thing.

I would like that 5 years from now, Newey tells us the secrets behind his rb5 to rb9 cars. That would be wonderful.

But to reveal a gem about these cars which i was promising to do, (though i wont reveal everything as next years car will be similar) is that we tend to forget the upper surface of the car. We all focus on the floor and diffuser and blown exhuast.
These make a huge contribution ofcourse.
But this car's unequaled advantage and to some extent the lotus e21 and e20 stems from their upper surfaces. This is mostly from the body of the car. RB cars have less uplift on the top surface, and this is a major contribution to the net force on the car which is the difference with top and bottom.
No team has equalled newey's car because they don't know how to reduce the up lift to the levels that the rb9 has. In fact there is region on this car where the top surface is creating downforce; a very unlikely area.

if you have a car that has 900 pounds of suction under it, and 800 pounds of uplift, you simply have 100 pounds of downforce.
A car that has 800 pounds of suction and 600 pounds of uplift will have twice the downforce.
Now this is clearly an exageration, but it illustrates what these cars have been doing, and no one else could have realized this, and had they have known, they don't know how to get the results by shaping the car.

to go back to my first point. You need big things, like the body of the car, to get big results or you need high energy in your small things, like the exhaust energy around the egde of the diffuser.
We're wasting time if we think a few flickups here and there that create turbulence and a little ground effect is giving redbull their 15% downforce advantage.

[Richard]

i wont reveal everything as next years car will be similar

Hang on second, a few weeks ago you said:

i'll wait till the rules change completely in 2014 before i do a write up. It will explain mostly why these rb cars dont need much wing.

I just don't want to pop the secret, and spoil the show, even though it may make the show better if i do at the moment, as the cars are too dominant.

There seems to be a strong sense of deja-vu...

Sep 2011

At end of year, i'll reveal why redbull is quickest.

Feb 2012

I just feel reluctant to reveal it. It would make F1 boring if everyone copied it. If the RB8 is too dominant then i will spill the beans.

[sectionate]

It is all in the ellipses

[Jonnycraig]

He's found the flux capacitor.

Better luck next time Adrian.

[PhillipM]

Ringo - that's been something aero designers have been chasing for decades in F1, as it's the main source of performance without drag penalty, I'd be very surprised if it's not been very closely looked at by other teams.

@Richard Same old, same old, eh? "I know what it is but I can't tell anyone" - Yeah, okay.

[Owen.C93]

Speaking to an ex F1 designer and he spoke about how the sidepod inlet shape is important. When you angle it correctly you can accelerate the flow and vector the resultant force forwards and downwards to reduce drag and provide a bit of downforce (or less lift however you look at it). Which is apparently what honda neglected to do in 05.



It's not always about having the biggest undercut for the diffuser, it has other uses.

[ringo]

It's not the inlet, it's the outer surface.
Yeah i've been banging on for a couple years.
Ok let me just spill the beans. I'm tired of the RB domination anyway.

Newey uses uses radii in the body of the car. Let my fans down who expected to hear elipse.
Some joke about this but if you do redbull front wing history in pictures then compare to other teams allong the way and see how the teams take on the elliptical wing you would realize it's valid.
The sidepods are a different story however.
The radii is responsible for the cars steady behavior in any pitch situation. Radii also have better pressure recovery gradients than any other curve. Yes it is very simple. It was before your eyes when i made this car, bu no one noticed.
It took me a long time to realize this after many attempts of trying to understand why the redbulls look how they do.

I have done comparative tests back then and i was getting 11% more downforce consistently than two other side pod curvature types used in F1. Rake of the car further helped this radius concept.

So there you go guys free gold. Go put radiused sidepods on everything now, go beat the redbulls!!
All i wanted was some money, but it wasn't coming. So might as well share the secret.

this was two years ago, it was fun putting it right before your eyes. I also posted the cfd results here as well but labeled it curve x.



the only rb car to use softer radii and a slight coruption of the curvature is this years car. The coanda exhaust allowed them to do this, and gave them better top speed. The radii sidepods are somewhat iherently draggy though the downforce levels are worth it.
I'll post more later. If you think this is crazy, well i'm not offended i can always put up the test results, just put up your own research to prover otherwise when i do. But i'll wait on feedback. I guess the journos have something to talk about from this as well when things get really boring.

look here for the car build for some more redbull nuances that are consistently used over the years.
things like the splitter design, placing the centre of pressure around the driver's COG etc. etc.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... &start=150

[ringo]

Ringo - that's been something aero designers have been chasing for decades in F1, as it's the main source of performance without drag penalty, I'd be very surprised if it's not been very closely looked at by other teams.

@Richard Same old, same old, eh? "I know what it is but I can't tell anyone" - Yeah, okay.

That's the key word there. They have been chasing it, but they didn't know how to achieve it.
Now we have Redbull who were copied by Lotus.
this is why i made a bold statement when the e20 came out and called it the second fastest car, which it was, and now it's the same thing this year.
I know it's too simple to swallow right now; kinda like the bold "pushrods extinction" prediction. but hey, thus is the nature of F1.

[Kiril Varbanov]

Do we really believe in extraterrestrial forces and forms of life? I do not. But I may have missed the point of discussion here - trying to decode the top secret of Bull's speed? I will not dare ... Really, I don't mean to be sarcastic or jerk (which is usually hard), but it's an end of a story for me, down to a combination of things.

@Owen - Certainly, you are right, the inlet shape and size has a huge effect - both on shape drag and internal drag coefficients. Check World War II stories about radiators. Or just any aero book.

Final words from me on RB9 - excellent job Newey and team. See you in 2014.

[sectionate]

Do we really believe in extraterrestrial forces and forms of life? I do not. But I may have missed the point of discussion here - trying to decode the top secret of Bull's speed? I will not dare ... Really, I don't mean to be sarcastic or jerk (which is usually hard), but it's an end of a story for me, down to a combination of things.

@Owen - Certainly, you are right, the inlet shape and size has a huge effect - both on shape drag and internal drag coefficients. Check World War II stories about radiators. Or just any aero book.

Final words from me on RB9 - excellent job Newey and team. See you in 2014.

This tbh, it isn't just about slapping a radii onto the sidepods and going from there. If you look at the 2011 car, their sidepods are wildly different compared to the other teams, they have always been able to clean them up and get the best airflow to the diffuser.

Newey understands very clearly that the body surfaces have to be as smooth as possible and he will not compromise on them. Take a look at the Ferrari of this year, it doesn't have a smooth transition across the surface when compared to the Redbull, it has some 'odd' looking lumps. If you look at all of Neweys Champ winning cars, they are very very sleek in terms of the aerodynamic surfaces.

I also think they have optimised their manufacturing processes to near perfection, where as a lower budget team will have to accept a lower tolerance. This will make a huge difference in controlling where the air goes and matching up with the wind tunnels and simulations.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Speaking to an ex F1 designer and he spoke about how the sidepod inlet shape is important. When you angle it correctly you can accelerate the flow and vector the resultant force forwards and downwards to reduce drag and provide a bit of downforce (or less lift however you look at it). Which is apparently what honda neglected to do in 05.

http://cars-database.com/data_images/ga ... -f1-02.jpg

It's not always about having the biggest undercut for the diffuser, it has other uses.

That's the 2004 chassis, and that was actually a really good car.

[meves]

@Ringo I might have missed something here but you're saying that instead of using ellipses they use circles (I'm assuming from your use of the word radii) or are you talking about a specific radius or a specific ratio of radius or another other measurements on the car? Or are you simply saying that the car has smooth surfaces and and a smooth as possible transition from one plane to another or that the transition from the sidepod to the floor is very smooth and gentle? I think I must be missing something from your description which just says use circles not ellipses.

[Huntresa]

Does anyone have the prediction of RB10 that scarbs did for sportbild, the german paper.

[Thunder]

you mean from this Preview ?



Edit: The Preview Text on the sportbild HP mentions a Duck Nose, whatever this will be. ^^

I'm sure the Full Pic will find it's way to the Internet.