Brazil GP 2008

[Project Four]

Congratulations to Lewis and to Mclaren for winning the WDC. Fully deserved and justified. I have been following Lewis career since he joined the McLaren driver program and have also believed that he would be a champion. This year he has made some mistakes, but the guy is still young and to some degree still learning.

My whole hearted commiserations to Felipe, that was not a nice way to lose out and he handled himself after the race fantastically. I must admit that at the start of the year I really thought he was struggling without TC and it was going to be a long hard year for him. But, he has stepped up and it has been let down by Ferrari unreliability, although the Ferrari has easily been the best and fastest car of the year. I think the team needs to sit down and think how they managed to lose the WDC.

Great year of racing and the future looks really good with all the young guns coming through.

And lastly, what a load of nonsense some people come up about that last lap and Timo Glock, he was on the wrong tires at the wrong time. However, his strategy did mean that Glock went from 7th before the rain to finish 6th at the end so maybe his and Toyota’s strategy wasn’t that bad after all.

[andartop]

Did Ferrari win the constructor's or driver's championships in 2005? In 2006? Fact is, Ferrari's dominance in F1 is OVER. Yes, they won the constructor's championship, but they did not DOMINATE this year, nor last year.

Ferrari struggled in 2005 to adapt to the rules changes then, and that was with the dream team still being around. In fact, Toyota came awfully close to finishing ahead of Ferrari in the constructor's standings that year.

So far the signs are not so great for Ferrari in terms of adapting to the 2009 changes.

2005 was indeed a bad year for Ferrari, as they finished 3rd. In 2006 they came 2nd with 201 points as opposed to Renault's 206. For the record McLaren was 3rd with 110 points (almost half!). In total, over the last decade, Ferrari won 8 out of 10 Constructor's Championships, and got a 2nd and a 3rd place. Their closest rivals, Renault/Benetton, won 2 Championships, and got positions ranging from 3rd to 7th, and McLaren won nil and got positions ranging from 2nd to 11th(or 5th if you want to disregard last year's cheating)! I do not know what the signs say, or the birds' flight patterns or the palantir, but the FACTS say that Ferrari as a Team have DOMINATED the last decade, by far...

I fully give credit to the time when Ferrari dominated, and that was during the time when the "dream team" was around. MOST of Ferrari's dominance in the last decade was because of the dream team. That is my point. Since the "dream team" left Ferrari a few years ago, Ferrari has NOT been as dominant. Ferrari has not been dominant since 2004.

This year neither McLaren nor Ferrari were dominant; most of the race wins were split between Ferrari and McLaren. McLaren and Lewis got the driver's championship, Ferrari got the constructor's. Last year, Ferrari got the constructor's championship ONLY because McLaren was disqualified from the constructor championship. Kimi won the championship by a hair just as Lewis did, but the difference in 2007 was that Lewis and Alonso BOTH finished only one point behind Kimi. Based on results and race wins, it was technically McLaren that was the better team as they achieved more points than Ferrari did for the 2007 season.

In 2006, Alonso beat Schumacher in the driver's championship by a comfortable margin, 13 points to be exact. Renault also won the constructor's championship that year by a few points. In 2005, both Renault and McLaren beat Ferrari by a HUGE amount in the constructor's championship. Toyota finished only 12 points behind Ferrari in the constructor's championship that year. Alonso and Kimi beat Schumi in the driver's championship by a huge margin as well.

So since 2005, over the past 4 years Ferrari has won the constructor's championship 2 out of 4 years, one of which was thanks to some luck from the FIA, and won the driver's championship only 1 out 4 years. That's definitely not dominance.

With the 2009 changes, I don't see Ferrari being dominant either.

The World Drivers Championship is a different thing that the World's Constructor's Championship.
2005 was indeed a bad year for Ferrari, as they finished 3rd. In 2006 they came 2nd with 201 points as opposed to Renault's 206. For the record McLaren was 3rd with 110 points (almost half!). In total, over the last decade, Ferrari won 8 out of 10 Constructor's Championships, and got a 2nd and a 3rd place. Their closest rivals, Renault/Benetton, won 2 Championships, and got positions ranging from 3rd to 7th, and McLaren won nil and got positions ranging from 2nd to 11th(or 5th if you want to disregard last year's cheating)! I do not know what the signs say, or the birds' flight patterns or the palantir, but the FACTS say that Ferrari as a Team have DOMINATED the last decade, by far...

PS. It's not by mistake that I post the same reply..

[vasia]

Did Ferrari win the constructor's or driver's championships in 2005? In 2006? Fact is, Ferrari's dominance in F1 is OVER. Yes, they won the constructor's championship, but they did not DOMINATE this year, nor last year.

I can't see your point. If anything Ferrari dominated ONLY 2002 and 2004 (well, maybe 2001 too but not as much). And with your logic, what would you say about McLaren? With tremendous resources (remember - they DON'T build engines, yet in terms of budget they are at the same level with Ferrari), great designers and Ron Dennis who has more F1 experience than any other team leader, they managed to win 2 WDC titles over last 10 seasons, and 1 WCC.

Fact is, leaders come and go and that's noting new.

As for Ferrari, you may as well find that right now they had solved two main problems that prevented them from thaking title at 80's and 90's. Now they have good organization and they also managed to create great technological base (at 80's they had to outsource many things like monocoque fabrication etc, and had design office based in England). So I think that they still would make a good competition.

Where do you think that "great technological base" came from? A lot of credit goes to Brawn for creating and solidifying a great technological base. Also a lot of credit to Todt-Schumi-Brawn for imposing a lot of discipline and organization into the team.

This year though, there have already been signs of internal conflict starting to emerge at Ferrari.

There is no guarantee Ferrari can maintain the great organization and good technological base with Brawn-Schumi-Todt out of the picture. Yes Schumi is still an advisor/consultant to the team, but that will not make a big difference.

Ferrari has lost some incredible talent with the dream team, but at the same time other teams have gained a lot of great talent and it's only a matter of time before some of those teams start to shine. Other teams are also gaining more experience.

It's been a bunch of years since McLaren won a championship, and you can be sure that will make everyone at the organization extra motivated to work even harder next season.

The World Drivers Championship is a different thing that the World's Constructor's Championship.
2005 was indeed a bad year for Ferrari, as they finished 3rd. In 2006 they came 2nd with 201 points as opposed to Renault's 206. For the record McLaren was 3rd with 110 points (almost half!). In total, over the last decade, Ferrari won 8 out of 10 Constructor's Championships, and got a 2nd and a 3rd place. Their closest rivals, Renault/Benetton, won 2 Championships, and got positions ranging from 3rd to 7th, and McLaren won nil and got positions ranging from 2nd to 11th(or 5th if you want to disregard last year's cheating)! I do not know what the signs say, or the birds' flight patterns or the palantir, but the FACTS say that Ferrari as a Team have DOMINATED the last decade, by far...

PS. It's not by mistake that I post the same reply..

You did not read what I said AT ALL. It's not by mistake that I post this reply.

Ferrari since 2004 HAS NOT BEEN DOMINANT. PERIOD. That is my point.

[Project Four]

For all the "what if scenario" lovers out there, some simple mathematics:

LH 10+2+4+6+10+10+10+2+6+4+4+10+2=80
FM 10+6+10+4+2+10+4+10+10+1+6+10=83

(PS for all the moaners: based on official results)

Not wishing to appear stupid andartop, but what are you going on about.

I thought that this year WDC rules were 1st = 10 points, 2nd = 8 points, 3rd = 6 points, 4th = 5 points, 5th = 4 points, 6th = 3 points, 7th = 2 points and 8th = 1 point.

Or am i missing something

[andartop]

Vasia, it just seems that you don't have a point. Firstly, the subject of this thread is Brazil GP 2008. Secondly, you say that Ferrari has not been dominant since 2004. My answer to that was that Ferrari won 8 out of 10 WCCs since 1999, with their closest rivals winning 2 and nil. 2005 was the worst year for Ferrari, and still they were 3rd, in contrast to Renault and McLaren who have slipped as far down as 7th and 11th respectively. That is an amazing DOMINANCE spanning a decade. Some of those championships came easier than others, yes, but by default you measure a performance by comparing it to the closest rivals', so no matter how you choose to see this, Ferrari have been indisputably DOMINANT the last 10 years.

[andartop]

Not wishing to appear stupid andartop, but what are you going on about.

I thought that this year WDC rules were 1st = 10 points, 2nd = 8 points, 3rd = 6 points, 4th = 5 points, 5th = 4 points, 6th = 3 points, 7th = 2 points and 8th = 1 point.

Or am i missing something

You just missed the "For all the "what if scenario" lovers out there" bit.

[donskar]

vasia, the depths of your ignorance are profound. More revisionist history.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, it is easy to argue that it is true that Ferrari was the target of many jokes, not only during the 80's and 90's, but way before. The running joke I remember is:

- "What is a WDC, daddy?"

- "I don't know son, I'm a tifosi"

It is also true that Ferrari has dominated the first half of this decade.

Finally, it is true that their relative advantage has been attacked on all fronts, from the standardization of tyres, to the limited rev engines, culminating with an engine freeze, a standard ECU and, perhaps soon, a totally standard engine, outsourced KERS, streamlined cars, limited downforce: you name it.

Actually, FIA's clear goal is to avoid dominance of one team, because it hurted their TV ratings, or so I think.

It is not hard to understand that this means that for a team to dominate in the future, the way Ferrari did during the first five years of this century, they shall come from another planet.

Now, to argue that their dominance is over just because they lost a championship (half of it!) by pure chance, after McLaren almost blew it again, it's borderline anti-Ferrari. Check qualy results if you want a clearer, maybe more objetive approach.

If you're prejudiced against a team, anything is an argument.

If something can be said is that McLaren has caught them, and not precisely in a way full of lustre. It was the toss of a coin, a victory arguably from a team half-tainted with disrepute, whose technology we don't know how much is copied and how much is original.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by revisionist history, donskar? Is there a stalinist, official version, of the history of "dominance in Formula One"? C'mon, old man, cheer up! Where has your sense of humour gone?

Actually, I'm not happy with the result, if that serves for something. I'm also waiting for a gesture from Hamilton, the way Alonso had when he went to McLaren's garage to congratulate him.

NOTE: I will split this thread to a new one, called "Ferrari's dominance" or something like that. I'll do it tomorrow, unless someone finds a good argument against it. Please, provide some numbers, so much text is a little boring, even for me. I think it's time to analyze what happened, preferably with our brains instead of using other organs of our body, if you know what I mean.

[vasia]

Vasia, it just seems that you don't have a point. Firstly, the subject of this thread is Brazil GP 2008. Secondly, you say that Ferrari has not been dominant since 2004. My answer to that was that Ferrari won 8 out of 10 WCCs since 1999, with their closest rivals winning 2 and nil. 2005 was the worst year for Ferrari, and still they were 3rd, in contrast to Renault and McLaren who have slipped as far down as 7th and 11th respectively. That is an amazing DOMINANCE spanning a decade. Some of those championships came easier than others, yes, but by default you measure a performance by comparing it to the closest rivals', so no matter how you choose to see this, Ferrari have been indisputably DOMINANT the last 10 years.

My point originally was, seeing as you missed it, that this season is an egg on Ferrari's face because the driver's championship was theirs to lose, and they DID lose it.

Ferrari have been dominant over the last 10 years OVERALL thanks MOSTLY to the dream team. Ferrari did NOT deserve the constructor's championship last year, and based on driver points McLaren WAS the winner of constructor championship, but the FIA disqualified them from the championship. That still doesn't change the fact that as a TEAM McLaren scored more points last year with their drivers than Ferrari.

vasia, the depths of your ignorance are profound. More revisionist history.

A very well thought-out, deep and thorough argument on your part.

If you're prejudiced against a team, anything is an argument.

I'm not a huge fan of any team in particular. I don't have anything against the Ferrari team, nor do I have any specific bias for McLaren. In fact, I don't like Ron Dennis nor do I like Lewis Hamilton, but I give McLaren and Lewis full credit for the driver championship.

What I do not like however is some of the questionable generosity Ferrari has seen from the FIA, and also the questionable harsh penalties that McLaren recieved over the last 2 years. I also do not like tifosi fans who think Ferrari is unstoppable, fans which do not recall Ferrari's history.

[shir0]

Great racing for 5th place? I guess thats like when those NAscar boys say "wow I definatly had a top 25 car today"... you may be happy with 5th place but some others aim for excellance, win all the time everytime in dominating fashion. Not limp home in fifth place...

Well, I don't want any argument over this. I'm just voicing my opinion and I guess, so are you. So no point of argument there.

However, it is, interestingly enough, an opinion I happen to have shared with Lewis Hamilton, his race engineer and the entire McLaren team.

Hmmm...come to think of it, even if you want to bash my opinion, you're bashing Lewis's opinion and his team's too!! That's fine with me. That's very fine me!!

[Project Four]

You just missed the "For all the "what if scenario" lovers out there" bit.

Oh okay, a ‘what if scenario’,like

- what if Alonso had got a stop-go for gaining an advantage at the start at Spore by going off track at the first corner,

- or what if Raikkonen had been given a grid penalty for Canada for hitting Sutil in Monaco and therefore not been there in the pits when Hamilton crashed into the back of him,

- or what if Massa’s engine did not fail in Hungary,

- or what if Hamilton had not punished in Belgium,

- or what if Hamilton had not been penalised for the incident at the start of the Chinese GP,

- or what if Massa had been punished for the incident with Bourdais,

- or what if Massa had been penalised for the pit release at Valencia,

- or what if Ferrari had not messed up Massa’s pit shop in Spore,

- or what if we used the old point scoring system (9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1) Hamilton would have won with 81 points to 77,

- or what if two great drivers had battled it out around the world and it had come down to the last race of the year and the second last corner and both had sportingly excepted the result with good grace.

[megz]

Ferrari have been dominant over the last 10 years OVERALL thanks MOSTLY to the dream team. Ferrari did NOT deserve the constructor's championship last year, and based on driver points McLaren WAS the winner of constructor championship, but the FIA disqualified them from the championship. That still doesn't change the fact that as a TEAM McLaren scored more points last year with their drivers than Ferrari.

Um... Recall McLaren not gaining any constructors points from Hungary thanks to bringing the sport into disrepute? So yes Ferrari WOULD have won it last year even if they weren't disqualified for "espionage"

Can we not just Applaud our new WDC and Massa's valiant effort?

Ferrari have done the most consistantly good job of any team over these last few years, it's stupid to argue against that, numbers don't lie.

[andartop]

My point originally was, seeing as you missed it, that this season is an egg on Ferrari's face because the driver's championship was theirs to lose, and they DID lose it.

Ferrari have been dominant over the last 10 years OVERALL thanks MOSTLY to the dream team. Ferrari did NOT deserve the constructor's championship last year, and based on driver points McLaren WAS the winner of constructor championship, but the FIA disqualified them from the championship. That still doesn't change the fact that as a TEAM McLaren scored more points last year with their drivers than Ferrari.

I'm not a huge fan of any team in particular. I don't have anything against the Ferrari team, nor do I have any specific bias for McLaren. In fact, I don't like Ron Dennis nor do I like Lewis Hamilton, but I give McLaren and Lewis full credit for the driver championship.

What I do not like however is some of the questionable generosity Ferrari has seen from the FIA, and also the questionable harsh penalties that McLaren recieved over the last 2 years. I also do not like tifosi fans who think Ferrari is unstoppable, fans which do not recall Ferrari's history.

Your point originally does not stand. Ferrari screwed up big time on numerous occasions this year (unreliability, basic design flaws, silly mistakes from drivers and mechanics, amateurish strategic decisions), one of their two drivers had arguably his worst season ever AND funnily enough even the weather seemed to be against them (no conspiracy there!) but STILL managed to win the WCC and almost got the WDC as well. This is an egg on all the other Teams' faces, as they failed miserably to capitalize on Ferrari's misdoings and misfortunes, with the "bright" exception of LH who stole the WDC for 1 point 2 corners before the end of the Championship. THAT is nothing short of ridiculous my friend, whenever Renault or Macca had had such a bad year in the recent history of the sport they fell as far down as 5th-7th position (all the way down to 11th), let alone salvaging a TITLE...
As far as last year's McLaren's achievements are concerned, that has been thoroughly discussed on other threads, all opinions heard, and I'm not going to participate in bringing it up again due to respect (and pity) for the other users of this forum. Please read the instructions before posting. (cheaters!)

[andartop]

You just missed the "For all the "what if scenario" lovers out there" bit.

Oh okay, a ‘what if scenario’,like

- what if Alonso had got a stop-go for gaining an advantage at the start at Spore by going off track at the first corner,

- or what if Raikkonen had been given a grid penalty for Canada for hitting Sutil in Monaco and therefore not been there in the pits when Hamilton crashed into the back of him,

- or what if Massa’s engine did not fail in Hungary,

- or what if Hamilton had not punished in Belgium,

- or what if Hamilton had not been penalised for the incident at the start of the Chinese GP,

- or what if Massa had been punished for the incident with Bourdais,

- or what if Massa had been penalised for the pit release at Valencia,

- or what if Ferrari had not messed up Massa’s pit shop in Spore,

- or what if we used the old point scoring system (9, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1) Hamilton would have won with 81 points to 77,

- or what if two great drivers had battled it out around the world and it had come down to the last race of the year and the second last corner and both had sportingly excepted the result with good grace.

Exactly the point. It was a cynic comment for all the people who still keep mumbling about Spa, Bourdais etc like the miserable bloke next door who everybody dreads to invite on a night out because they know he'll get drunk again and end up monopolizing every single attempt for a conversation obsessed as he is with universal issues like nuclear energy, the D-Day and the conspiracy to assassinate Marilyn Monroe.
There are conspiracies everywhere if you 're looking for one, but I 'm not the one who said Enzo made a pact with God to pour some rain near the end of the Brazilian GP! I feel that some people on this forum though would say just that had LH not have passed Glock 2 corners before the finish...

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Thankyou project four for making sence out of that nonsence...What if we used an old points scoring system not used in F1 for 5 years (I think - pls correct me if i'm wrong)

On that basis lets look at ALL the WDC won since the points for 1st was changed from 9 to 10, and then lets look at all the wdc won without the extra point for fastest lap rule...THEN lets riducule all the drivers who won, but wouldn't have won based upon their performances when viewed retrospectively though an old, disused, points scoring system. How petty are we?!

The fact of the matter is, Hamilton scored the most points, Massa did not. Whichever way you choose to look at it, they ALL get the same points for the various different positions that they may or may not finish in. Its a level playing field.

Its just another excuse for those with a bitter taste in their mouths to ridicule Hamilton as - now hes won a WDC - some of their earlier claims have now been disproved.

I can't believe people are ridiculing Glock...HE SET THE SAME TIME AS HIS TEAMMATE...how do you explain that?! He was doing all he could.

Finally, I really loved the post where:

"Massa have one thing to do - win. Hamilton had one thing to do, keep Vettel behind him, he failed. Hamilton won because of Glock.

Franlly that's laughable, Hamilton won because of a string of results spanning 18 races, in 17 different countrys over 8months, not because of one incident in the last race. Thats like me saying "Hamilton lost it last year only because of his gearbox glitch at Brazil last year." No, he didn't, if he'd done better beforehand that gearbox glich might not have mattered, fact is over the course of that season he failed to score as many points as Kimi.

Finally Massa had one job in Brazil - finish first, he did it, fantasically.
Hamilton had one job - finish 5th - he did it.

Despite Massa's best efforts (what more could the poor guy have done) he could seal the deal. What if's are irrelevant, they maybe nice to ponder (like what if Senna didn't die, or what if Sir Sterling Moss didn't have his accident at Goodwood, or what if Damon Hill had re-signed for 1997) but frankly they are irrelevant.

Somebody earlier said "Damon Hill and JV won one world championship didn't they?" How can u ridicule them?! Firstly the pressure (being the sons of Graham and Gilles), for Damon he had to step up to the plate after the death of Ayrton in 1994 and NEARLY won the title (and to this day people argue he should have, schumi hit him blah blah blah) in 1995 he also fought for the title and for a while gave "the great one" a hard time of it, in 1996 he won it (okay having schumi at Ferrari in 1996 helped out - but there are other drivers!) in 1997 he nearly won a race in an ARROWS (after passing the great one no less). Yeah Damon Hill was crap weren't he? And JV?! JV ran close to his established team mate in 1996 (who as we know won it that year) in 1997 had to lead the team in only his first season of F1, in 1998 and 1999 the car was not capable of helping him win the title (hardly his fault) and then he left to try and make something of BAR (entirely his fault but its his life he can do what he wants with it AND, how does that diminish his ability to drive an F1 car) Oh and he's also won the INDY 500 and wants to (and was close to) becoming the 2nd person ever to win the F1 WDC, the Indy 500 and Le Mans.

To win an F1 WDC is a great achievement, and to ridicule a driver who has won one is to show much less sporting graciousness than what Massa showed this weekend. Insted of blaming people and looking for peoples faults why not FINALLY grow up and face facts, Lewis Hamilton AND Felipe Massa drove some great races this year and both deserved the WDC, Hamilton won it due to a sightly better performance over the course on an 18race season.

If Lewis Hamilton is really so crap, then what does that say about Massa or Kimi's performances this year? Because if they are really so much better, why didn't they win it?
Considering that none of the title protagantists "got away" with anything even remotely wrong this year in terms of penalties:
Hamilton-98
Massa-97
Seems quite clear to me.

I'll leave the last words to Fernando Alonso:

"In the end, Lewis won and scored more points and the driver who scores the most is the best driver," the Spaniard observed. "Lewis deserves his time and I congratulate him."

(Source: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 86,00.html)