Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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PNSD
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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My opinion on this is if Honda have a serious buyer or more which they say they do then if I were JB/Nick Fry I would test the car now with their own money, use the remaining 8 or so units Honda have left and complete some good milage on the car.

Use 2-3 engines max. Go to Aus with a few engines left, race the car they tested with then hopefully by then they will have an engine deal, a modified car to accomodate the new engine...

axle
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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The Honda pull out and not supplying engines is entirely political.

As I think I've said before the BEST solution is using Mugen...Honda could "sell" the rights to build the engine and manufacturing dept to Mugen and as long as the race team meet the costs associated then it's all good :)
- Axle

xpensive
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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I wonder what Honda really wants to see happening happen here?

Consider the following scenario, however unlikely, the Brackley squad finds a decent engine and money to finance the race-team, new car is a winner and Jenson fights for the WDC?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Sawtooth-spike
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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xpensive wrote:I wonder what Honda really wants to see happening happen here?

Consider the following scenario, however unlikely, the Brackley squad finds a decent engine and money to finance the race-team, new car is a winner and Jenson fights for the WDC?
I dont think that is likely.

I would go with, "get an Engine deal and do much better than last year". But to be fair that not really high expectations.

Redesigning the cooling on the car will effect the overall design and so much will have to be changed to make it work. Add to that the lack of testing pre season, the fact they cant test during the season.IF Honda or Son of Honda as i have started calling them does make it to the grid they will be lucky to be fighting with the Force indias.

I really like Honda (BAR) But ever since David Richards left, they started to look like a team with "all the gear and no idea".

Shame really.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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GTO
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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Ex-Toyotoa F1 engine boss Luca Marmorini has surprisingly cleard his calendar & has some free time.
:-k

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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It appears that pressure is beginning to be applied: automoto365
The Honda Racing Formula One team seems to be in further trouble with reports emerging in the Daily Mail this morning that the Department of trade and Industry have been asked to investigate claims that current team boss Nick Fry is one of the interested parties in the one pound purchase of the Brackley based squad.

It appears as if team members have requested the investigation as the cut-off date for purchase rapidly approaches and no deal has been done. With a January 31st deadline, Fry, who is in charge of fielding the offers, claims that that he has whittled the enquiries down to twelve serious bidders.

With reports that Fry is also interested in purchasing the team, current staff members are concerned that it represents a conflict of interest, putting the possible sale in severe jeopardy, as well as their futures.

‘The level of anger and frustration at the factory is unbelievable. We wonder whether Nick is doing the right thing by wearing two hats. The DTI will be keen to make sure that Honda find the best, most competitive buyer,’ Sportsmail quote an insider as saying.

Time is rapidly running out for the team if they plan to be on the grid with a competitive car come March.
automoto365 is a news source close to Todt jr. and it ties in with the critical voice from Ferrari's Domenicali who said that engines will be unlikely to come from Ferrari.

If indeed the DTI is conducting an investigation the shady role of Nick Fry may eventually come to an end and the company may be saved.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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I think that Fry's manouvers matters little in this context WB, when I'm afraid that the timing is not exactly perfect to off a sponsor- and engine-less team, even for a pound.

Unless somebody, Fry himself perhaps, found a loophole in Honda's requirements of actually running the cars, so that the Brackley-team's assets could be bought as pure speculation?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

axle
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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It's all over the net now...

Fry has some explaining to do. And it sounds like all the people in the factory do NOT want him do a management buyout.

His ego is getting in the way, Honda should remove him at once.
- Axle

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Sawtooth-spike
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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My Question is this

Will we Ever see this car that have been 2 years in the making?
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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axle wrote:It's all over the net now...

Fry has some explaining to do. And it sounds like all the people in the factory do NOT want him do a management buyout.

His ego is getting in the way, Honda should remove him at once.
I absolutely agree with this. I was hoping that Fry was finished when they announced Brawn as team principal. Unfortunately that did not happen. I just hope the team is saved in the very last minute. F1 could really implode if such a team cannot be saved due to the machinations of one guy.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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Me thinks this is all show, who's gonna be interested in a sponsor- and engine-less team with 700 employees that spent 350 MUSD ("give or take", as Fry himself so eloquently put it) last year to finish effectively last?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble?

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donskar wrote:I would suspect that Carlos Ghosn will be looking at the Renault F1 bottom line VERY carefully.

And if Honda goes, why should Toyota stay?

Bad, very bad.

James Allan came back with some ideas
What Renault is right to be scared
January 27, 2009 by speedmerchants
There have been some worried noises coming out of Renault staff in recent weeks and delving around it’s not hard to see why. The staff have had to take a pay cut, they have acknowledged that there will be a round of redundancies and the title sponsor, Dutch banking and insurance group ING is laying off 7,000 people.

Although the sponsorship has been brilliantly effective for ING and has been exploited very well by its marketing team, it is hard to see how that deal can be renewed when it expires at the end of this season. That could leave Renault looking for a new title sponsor in a super tough environment.

And find a sponsor it must because the Renault parent company is living a nightmare at the moment. At the peak of the business cycle in July 2007 the Renault share price was 120 euros per share, valuing the company at €34 billion. In September 2008 it had fallen to €57 per share and today the share price stands at just €14, valuing the company at just €4 billion. In other words it has lost virtually 90% of its value in 18 months or so.

Last week the French government weighed in with a €6 billion bailout for the French car industry, after a meeting with Renault chairman and CEO Carlos Ghosn, who had warned them that the European car industry was about to fall off a cliff.

Ghosn said yesterday that “It may take more than seven years for car sales to return to 2007 levels.”

Against that backdrop, the company has to be thinking of its F1 programme with the same affection as Honda had for theirs. The cost saving package agreed before Christmas was vital, but given that Renault’s estimated spend on F1 was around €300 million last year, you can see that FOTA and the FIA are going to have to cut the costs of competing a bit more seriously still if Renault are to have any chance of carrying on as a competitor in 2010. Hence the rumours about the customer engine deals not carrying on next year. And hence the reason Alonso has done his Ferrari deal, with a potential 2010 start date.

I’m one of life’s optimists, not at all partial to the doom-mongers, who are having such a field day at the moment. But it’s not hard to see where this story is headed.

And then what? I don’t think that the team would be lost to the sport. Seasoned F1 watchers expect veteran Renault F1 boss Flavio Briatore to pick up the team if Renault pull out. The model the FIA has in mind will make the future viable for independents operating on a budget of around £50 million per year so there is plenty to play for there. And knowing Flavio, he’d be able to sell it on again once the business cycle starts picking up. Let’s not forget that the last time Renault pulled out, in 1997, Flavio took on the customer engine supply business through his Supertec concern, which supplied engines to Williams.

Let’s hope we are wrong, but the numbers are definitely right and very worrying.
So we got Renault, Toyota and Williams all to worry about at the same time. I think they need to take this plan to get down to 50 mil $ Budgets very serious. I don't like the idea of three cars from the big teams much.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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Yesterday Bernie obviously hoped the manufacturers would line up to make a ten year committment in exchange for the privilege to spend aven more money on the sport?
I doubt if that will happen on any larger scale, unless FOM arranges with even more outrageous razmatazz for manufacturer-executives visiting the hospitality suites and motorhomes?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Conceptual
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble?

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WhiteBlue wrote:

James Allan came back with some ideas
What Renault is right to be scared
January 27, 2009 by speedmerchants
There have been some worried noises coming out of Renault staff in recent weeks and delving around it’s not hard to see why. The staff have had to take a pay cut, they have acknowledged that there will be a round of redundancies and the title sponsor, Dutch banking and insurance group ING is laying off 7,000 people.

Although the sponsorship has been brilliantly effective for ING and has been exploited very well by its marketing team, it is hard to see how that deal can be renewed when it expires at the end of this season. That could leave Renault looking for a new title sponsor in a super tough environment.

And find a sponsor it must because the Renault parent company is living a nightmare at the moment. At the peak of the business cycle in July 2007 the Renault share price was 120 euros per share, valuing the company at €34 billion. In September 2008 it had fallen to €57 per share and today the share price stands at just €14, valuing the company at just €4 billion. In other words it has lost virtually 90% of its value in 18 months or so.

Last week the French government weighed in with a €6 billion bailout for the French car industry, after a meeting with Renault chairman and CEO Carlos Ghosn, who had warned them that the European car industry was about to fall off a cliff.

Ghosn said yesterday that “It may take more than seven years for car sales to return to 2007 levels.”

Against that backdrop, the company has to be thinking of its F1 programme with the same affection as Honda had for theirs. The cost saving package agreed before Christmas was vital, but given that Renault’s estimated spend on F1 was around €300 million last year, you can see that FOTA and the FIA are going to have to cut the costs of competing a bit more seriously still if Renault are to have any chance of carrying on as a competitor in 2010. Hence the rumours about the customer engine deals not carrying on next year. And hence the reason Alonso has done his Ferrari deal, with a potential 2010 start date.

I’m one of life’s optimists, not at all partial to the doom-mongers, who are having such a field day at the moment. But it’s not hard to see where this story is headed.

And then what? I don’t think that the team would be lost to the sport. Seasoned F1 watchers expect veteran Renault F1 boss Flavio Briatore to pick up the team if Renault pull out. The model the FIA has in mind will make the future viable for independents operating on a budget of around £50 million per year so there is plenty to play for there. And knowing Flavio, he’d be able to sell it on again once the business cycle starts picking up. Let’s not forget that the last time Renault pulled out, in 1997, Flavio took on the customer engine supply business through his Supertec concern, which supplied engines to Williams.

Let’s hope we are wrong, but the numbers are definitely right and very worrying.
So we got Renault, Toyota and Williams all to worry about at the same time. I think they need to take this plan to get down to 50 mil $ Budgets very serious. I don't like the idea of three cars from the big teams much.
Pretty ballsy to say that without confirmation. It wouldn't surprise me if James Allen is still pining over the 2007 Hamilton/Alonso fiasco, and spewing trash as he seems to feel that his bias helps at all...

I am glad that the BBC gets F1 next year, and Allen won't be ruining the races with his man love for Hamilton.

But, his numbers seem credible, so I don't doubt that Renault may be on the brink of pulling out for 2010.

If Alonso is WDC in 2009, I am sure that they could justify another year in F1. If not, then we may see 2 less cars in Melbourne 2010.

donskar
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Re: Honda F1 in trouble, and withdraw from F1

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xpensive wrote:I doubt if that will happen on any larger scale, unless FOM arranges with even more outrageous razmatazz for manufacturer-executives visiting the hospitality suites and motorhomes?
Surely Spanky Mosley could help make the hospitality suites more "interesting"?
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill