What will come after the 2.4 V8?

[WhiteBlue]

Well, if you want Ford or Mazda quality I'm not in the same league with you anyway. I much rather buy Audi or BMW made around the corner. I'm sure to get more value for money. The question is what this has to do with F1?

In my view F1 has to be the pinnacle of engineering in terms of efficiency, performance and reliability. So far F1 only looks for performance and reliability. The reality of our planet beyond peak oil will soon force everyone to embrace efficiency. The Californians have given up their Hummers for Priuses. The rest of the automotive industry will soon learn that energy wasters will die a sudden death in the show rooms.

McLaren claim the highest fuel efficiency for their MP4-12C super car. Ferrari present new cars with KERS and Porsche buys Williams KERS technology. It would have been unthinkable three years ago. But very soon even super rich people will buy efficient cars because global policies will simply enforce efficiency.

[djos]

Well, if you want Ford or Mazda quality I'm not in the same league with you anyway. I much rather buy Audi or BMW made around the corner. I'm sure to get more value for money.

BMW's, Audi's & Mercs are waaaaay over priced here and simply not worth buying unless you are a badge snob.

As for Mazda's quality it's sounds to me like you've never owned one and therefore dont know what you are on about.

[WhiteBlue]

BMW's, Audi's & Mercs are waaaaay over priced here and simply not worth buying unless you are a badge snob.

I would be carefull to extrapolate from Australian policies and conditions to the rest of the world. Global automotive suppliers will much rather eye a 600 million market like the US and EU have combined than Australia with a 20 million population.

For the first time ever, Audi passed Mercedes-Benz to become the second-highest-selling premium brand in the world.

In the first three months of the new decade, Audi outsold Mercedes, moving 264,100 cars in the first quarter of 2010, compared to Mercedes-Benz's 248,500. The figure is not only a 25.6-percent jump from the same time last year, but Audi's record for quarterly sales. Audi completed 110,400 deliveries in March alone, a 22.2-percent increase over the same period last year.

Should the pace continues, Audi should be on track to sell just over 1 million vehicles in 2010, but it will need to surpass BMW if it wants to become the largest luxury automaker in the world.

As for Mazda's quality it's sounds to me like you've never owned one and therefore dont know what you are on about.

Twenty five years ago I used to buy some Fords and some years later I had to accept a Rover as a company car. Both Brands were dreadful. Apart from that I only had Audis, Mercs and BMWs. I have always been very happy with those.

[Edis]

[-X Please, not oil burners!!!!

Driving a Diesel is like kissing your sister, you only do it when you have to!!!


NOTE: If Europeans didn't have artificially inflated Petrol prices they wouldn't drive Diesels either!

You certainly lack experience about diesels. I suggest that you test drive a modern diesel like for instance the BMW 335D. Then you will change your mind.

Secondly, your statement about artificially inflated petrol prices are not true. Both diesel and gasoline are taxed quite heavily in Europe (usually more the half the pump price), but even without tax diesel is normally a bit cheaper than gasoline or have at least been so for the last year. There was a bit of diesel shortage during 2008 that drove up the prices, but that is no longer an issue. To add to that the diesel consumes about 30% less fuel.

1.8ltr Twin Turbo V6* (can be sequential or simultaneous) with a maximum fuel tank size, driver controllable boost (with no boost limit) and 1 engine per entire weekend or to the back of the grid you go (will prevent 2,000HP hand grenade qually motors).

Then we will see who the real men are and we'll see a few more failures during races as teams try to get more HP than they really should especially in qually. The driver controllable boost should liven up overtaking too and far more than the "green" elephant KERS ever would!!!

Engines should also be made from road car materials eg Aluminium blocks and heads etc to keep the costs low (no unobtainium).


*basically a 90 degrees 2.4ltr V8 with 2 cylinders missing.

Further to this, I would ban pneumatic valve-trains as they have no road going application but I would allow continuously variable valve control/timing as used in road cars.

This would keep the RPM down without needing to set rpm limits as chain driven cams etc are prolly not viable above about 14,000rpm.

In champcar they ran to 17,000 rpm with steel coil springs, so don't think coil springs will limit engine speeds to 14,000 rpm.

I also can't see a reason to use more than four cylinders to get 750 hp, and you certainly doesn't need more than a 1.0-1.5 litre displacement.

[Edis]

So as you said engine sound is about perfrence, opinions, but im not allowed think turbo engines sound crap?

Your statement only show that you can't have heard that many turbo engines in reality. Turbo engines can sound very different from eachother just like naturally aspiranted engines can.

I didnt say you need no knowladge to design a Turbocharged engine, I said that any spanner can get 1000hp quite easily using just a turbo. As I said 'With turbos you just have to know how not to let your engine destroy itself', and perhaps the 'just' there was belittling the task so I appoloogise for that, but the engines will loose all their obvious amazing technology, and we will be left with engines you can make yourself, only they wont be as reliable.

This is again just a bunch of crap. You can get 1000 hp quite easily with a naturally aspiranted engine too. It's just a question of having enough displacement, engine speed and cylinder pressure. But the challenge is not to get more than 1000 hp - guys with big V8's and carburettors have done that for decades without big R&D budgets and specialist machinery - the challenge is to get the best performance possible within the regulations. If the regulation say 3 liter NA, 10 liter NA or 1.5 litre turbocharged doesn't matter, each regulation may have its own difficulties and result in different performance, but the challenge is the same.

With a displacement limited formula for NA engines, the development trend is toward increasing engine speeds, increasing number of cylinders and larger bore/stroke ratios. This since such a configuration can only give a bmep around 15, and as a result you can only make power through engine speed.

With a displacement limited turbocharged engine the development trend is instead mainly focused on increasing the supercharging pressure, since this offers the largest benefit. If you're capable to increase the boost from 2 bar abs. to 4 bar abs. you can double the engine output. But engine speed is also important, and similar to the NA engine a larger number of cylinders and an increased bore/stroke ratio will have a positive effect on the engine.

With a fuel limited formula you want to develope the power with fewer cylinders and a lower engine speed instead, since such a configuration offers a higher efficiency due to reduced friction and heat losses.

Maybe im wrong but ive never seen a 3liter NA crate engine with 1000HP

If the goal is 1000 hp, and there are no regulations, there is no reason to limit yourself to a 3 litre displacement. Then the only thing you need to look at are output vs. weight and size, fuel consumption and cooling requirement.

[ESPImperium]

Personally id like to see a engines like this:

* 1700cc V6 Supercharged Petrol 17000rpm 70KG 100 litre fuel cell
* 1300cc V6 Turbo Diesel 12000rpm 90KG 90 litre fuel cell

Petrol engines shall be limited to 750HP and diesel engines limited to 700hp. Petrol engines are allowed current gearbox rules with 7 speed boxes', where Diesels are limited to a maximul of 5 speed boxes'. However, id like gearboxes to be limited to each driver for every season, like the current engine rule, but for petrols a limit of 6 is given, as for diesels, probably less than that may be ideal.

There should be unlimited KERS and HERS should be allowed, but systems limited to a 50KG minimum weight limit.

There should be a performance differenciator between the 2 engines types, the low torque traction band that diesels offer, or the higher speeds that petrols ovver.

Im trying to use LMP1 regulations for the calculation of petrol to diesel fuel cells whitch are as follows, for the 2009 regs:

6.5 - Fuel Capacity :
6.5.1 - Whatever the outside ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure:
LMP1
• Petrol : 90 litres maximum on board;
• Diesel : 81 litres maximum on board;

6.5.2 - Any device or system the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the fuel storage capacity on board is prohibited.

The only thing im against if V4s, if its a V6 for the next gen engines ill be happy!!!

[alelanza]

Well probably not more since they wouldn't target more then 750hp, but somewhere around the current mark. And it would be getting the same from less because there would be two or even four less cylinders, but obviously with a turbo(s) being the equalizer.
And more efficient in that less cylinders/displacement means using less fuel, that's what my comment is based on .

But the turbo is also an equalizer in terms of consumption. You blow in more oxygen but also need to inject more fuel. Granted, it's my understanding that the underlying thermodynamics make the turbo somewhat more efficient, but i'm not sure if that would be the case in the F1 WOT environment, once you consider all necessary ancillaries of a turbo. And again more cylinder pressure/torque, means you need stronger head, cylinder, pistons, pins, con rods, crankshafts, etc all the way down to the rim. So in the end that's where my question lies, what would F1 gain from going turbo?

A question for everyone, how much fuel does a rally engine use to run anti lag? what are the alternatives? can you get immediate response just by using real short piping, variable geometry multi tiny turbos, etc.? And by immediate i do mean F1 class immediate response.

Although wouldn't direct injection help in this area as well? The LMP Porsche engines gained fuel efficiency by adopting DFI.

Definitely, but you don't need a turbo to run DI in an engine. I mean, they could just say 'next year y'all may stick injectors inside the cylinder' w/o a turbo.

F1 may stay with petrol to please the noise lovers and traditionalists such as Ferrari, but those are emotional and not rational reasons. I have certain sympathies for those folks but left to my own criteria I would always go for the rational solution.

Because going around in circles 19 times a year just to one up other people from various countries that fly a gazillion tons of equipment is of course a product of a rational process.

[autogyro]

I would like to compare the performance potential of a 1.6L oa 4 cylinder with an exhaust turbo generator charging a Kers energy storage system, with a strait turbo engine of four cylinders and 1.6 liters. I know it is the specific regulations that would count most but just an idea.
With conventional deceleration harvested Kers and a turbo generator feeding storage as well, there would be plenty of different ways to apply power for overtaking plus a real development area for clean and efficient energy use.

[Scotracer]

Personally id like to see a engines like this:

* 1700cc V6 Supercharged Petrol 17000rpm 70KG 100 litre fuel cell
* 1300cc V6 Turbo Diesel 12000rpm 90KG 90 litre fuel cell

Petrol engines shall be limited to 750HP and diesel engines limited to 700hp. Petrol engines are allowed current gearbox rules with 7 speed boxes', where Diesels are limited to a maximul of 5 speed boxes'. However, id like gearboxes to be limited to each driver for every season, like the current engine rule, but for petrols a limit of 6 is given, as for diesels, probably less than that may be ideal.

There should be unlimited KERS and HERS should be allowed, but systems limited to a 50KG minimum weight limit.

There should be a performance differenciator between the 2 engines types, the low torque traction band that diesels offer, or the higher speeds that petrols ovver.

Im trying to use LMP1 regulations for the calculation of petrol to diesel fuel cells whitch are as follows, for the 2009 regs:

6.5 - Fuel Capacity :
6.5.1 - Whatever the outside ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure:
LMP1
• Petrol : 90 litres maximum on board;
• Diesel : 81 litres maximum on board;

6.5.2 - Any device or system the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the fuel storage capacity on board is prohibited.

The only thing im against if V4s, if its a V6 for the next gen engines ill be happy!!!

You will not get a diesel revving that high.

[hecti]

How about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

but with modernday technology
wow sick would that be!!!

or a v10 a la mercedes ilmor of 1999-2000, with what ive heard to be butterfly valves in the exhaust that made it sound so smooth, that noise gives me goose bumps...ooohohohoh

id even consider 2liter turbo 4 cylinders, as long as they where boxer engines and sound like a subaru wrx sti with a strait pipes, sounds almost like a merlin^^

[autogyro]

Of course if you must have the ultimate internal combustion engine technology, try this with sleeve valves.
The Napier Heston is probably the most advanced pre sonic turbojet aircraft ever built and compares favourably with current F1 aerodynamics and not a computer in sight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Sabre

[xpensive]

This has been mentioned before, but I still believe that the current times crave some sort of fuel-efficiency formula,
preferably methanol-driven, when that fuel can be derived from cellulose and is thus considered "green".

A fuel-metering device, limiting cc/second to the engine should be most stimulating for the manufacturers to develop energy-efficient engines.

[010010011010]

Your statement only show that you can't have heard that many turbo engines in reality. Turbo engines can sound very different from eachother just like naturally aspiranted engines can.

Granted they can, but that still doesnt mean I have to like them. Im talking about MY prefrences here, why is that difficult to understand.

010010011010 wrote:
I didnt say you need no knowladge to design a Turbocharged engine, I said that any spanner can get 1000hp quite easily using just a turbo. As I said 'With turbos you just have to know how not to let your engine destroy itself', and perhaps the 'just' there was belittling the task so I appoloogise for that, but the engines will loose all their obvious amazing technology, and we will be left with engines you can make yourself, only they wont be as reliable.

This is again just a bunch of crap.

What is wrong with what I wrote there?

As for your love of turbos, is because they're more fuel efficent, or is it because you want to see them develop technology that can be used in road cars?

[hecti]

Of course if you must have the ultimate internal combustion engine technology, try this with sleeve valves.
The Napier Heston is probably the most advanced pre sonic turbojet aircraft ever built and compares favourably with current F1 aerodynamics and not a computer in sight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Sabre

Oh man!!! the Sabre VII, 3055 HP!!!!!!

[djos]

As for your love of turbos, is because they're more fuel efficent, or is it because you want to see them develop technology that can be used in road cars?

That easy, Turbos = high horsepower, high efficiency (a HERS system) and spectacular racing (late 80's is the golden era for me) and qualifying.

If the engines can be built from materials relevant to road cars to keep the costs low then I see no reason we couldn't return to the 1 engine per race weekend rule.

The FIA would have to ensure the the "engine companies" operated as independent organisations and were budget capped (eg 20 million Euros) - they would also have to provide engines to all teams who want them for the current 5 Million Euros and then they could develop to their hearts content and there would be no more bleating about this stupid engine freeze!