McLaren MP4-12C

[WhiteBlue]

It takes no rocket science to figure that the 458 Italia will have superior performance to to the McLaren. 17% power/weight advantage for the Ferrari

A Zonda has less than a Veyron but it will destroy the Veyron into submission round a track as well as putting a big grin on your chops. Driveabilty, torque ....REAL WORLD performance means more to me.

An MP4-12C and a 458 Italia have basically the same weight.

A Zonda has 0.53 hp/kg at 1275 kg compared to the 0.55 hp/kg of a Veyron at 1900 kg. This means the Zonda has 49% more mass in lateral acceleration and that will definitely show in the handling. Your comparison is one of apples with bananas.

On top of the other problems that McLaren are facing is the fact that Ferrari have already delivered 1250 of the 486 to customers and banked the cash flow. McLaren are still in the process of developing and field testing the MP4-12C with a heavy negative cash flow and they have still have to achieve the same sales figures to break even on the car.

[marcush.]

the Ferrari is claimed to weigh 1400kg but has actually seems to be closer to 1600 Kg .. @570HP thats roughly 0,35Hp/Kg.. 2,46kg/ps
cost 197000€

MAcs has a claimed 1300KG / 600Horses if we play the numbers game it looks not too good for the maranello pretiosa..and 0,46hp/kg....or more familar 2,17 kg/ps
and is around 210.000€

Porsche Turbo has 1595Kg/500 HP /152.000€ (PDK)
PorscheTurboS 1585kg/530HP/ 173.000€(PDK)
Porsche GT2 RS 1370KG/620HP/240.000€

as we can see from her the Macs is for what it is cometitively priced...30K cheaper than Porsche GT2RS! and just 10K more than a 458...


the 918 maybe a cool thing in terms of hybrid but the underwear is still the old Porsche Carrera GT..which looks quite outdated ...and blacksmith work ..I beg your pardon...I have to admit i have not seen the 918 in the flesh... its a lot of money.

[thestig84]

Ferrari have already delivered 1250 of the 486 to customers and banked the cash flow.

They banked the cash flow then withdrew a large amount of it to recall 1200 of the cars.....replace 5 chargrilled ones and probably lost out in future orders due to gaining a costcutting reputation that may lead to your Ferrari endangering your life. I think id rather Mclarens 'problems'

[Just_a_fan]

It takes no rocket science to figure that the 458 Italia will have superior performance to to the McLaren.

458 Italia: 0.54 hp/kg
MP4-12C: 0.46 hp/kg

-> 17% power/weight advantage for the Ferrari

Where did you get those figures from? Every source I have seen so far has the MP4-12C both lighter and with more power...

Add the fact that the McLaren sales and service organization is in the process of being build and you can figure where most of the money is going to end up.

I assume you're inferring that the money people will be paying for the MP4 is going to be spent by McLaren on the support infrastructure. That isn't the way that Ron Dennis does things. The MP4 programme was fully funded before they started building the prototypes.

The MP4-12C will have to be rely on being cheaper than the Ferrari and more performant than the Merc to sell.

McLaren have enough pedigree to sell cars without being cheaper than Ferrari.

This is going to hurt the McLaren margins compared to Ferrari.

They've had nearly 3000 expressions of interest and no one has test driven the thing yet. I don't think they'll be too worried.

McLaren simply do not have the engine technology that Ferrari have cultivated for years.

What are they missing?

Their chassis is probably first class but they will probably need time to catch up with the engine competence that Ferrari had decades to cultivate.

What 'engine competence' are they lacking relative to Ferrari? Self ignition?

[WhiteBlue]

Sorry for mixing up some numbers. We can assume that one web page quotes consistent figures although the McLaren has not been tested.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4217 ... talia.html

0.42 hp/kg at 1380 kg

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4256 ... 4-12C.html

0.46 hp/kg at 1300 kg

So the power to weight advantage is 9.5% for the McLaren

Disregard my comment on engine technology which was caused by erroneous figures. When the McLaren launches next year the Ferrari will have been sold for two years. I still do not believe that McLaren will have anywhere close to the margin Ferrari enjoys. And the comment on cash flow is still true regardless of McLaren having the finance. Money in the bank is better than money you owe the bank or your share holders.

We obviously cannot compare McLaren reliability with Ferrari reliability as McLaren are still to get the customer cars on the road. They may have learned important lessons by building the SLR with Mercedes but the proof is still in the pudding.

[Pup]

My guess is that if the MP4-12C can make it home from the dealership without catching fire, then there is a good argument that McLaren have bettered Ferrari's reliability.

McLaren's goal should be - better be - to match Porsche level reliability, which is still a relatively low bar to pass.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

My guess is that if the MP4-12C can make it home from the dealership without catching fire, then there is a good argument that McLaren have bettered Ferrari's reliability.

McLaren's goal should be - better be - to match Porsche level reliability, which is still a relatively low bar to pass.

They have not built a single car without some form of manufacture support.
The F1 had alot of BMW input with the engine, engine mounts, torsion dampers etc

And the SLR and its various incarnations had heaps of Stuttgart engineers scouring over every detail, and in some cases overriding Woking.

So reliability is a bit of a grey area for them.

McLaren have taken a risk here no doubt about it, a risk that may end up burying the company. All it will take is a double dip globale recession thatisnt as far fetched as some would have us believe.
But Mclaren need to take this risk if they are ever to escape the shackles of manufacture support.
I say they will do just fine so long as the car is well recieved(the british media will laud it even if it is a piece) and there are no Ferrari-esque fire balls.

And Mercedes will be the ones reaping the benefits with its SLS should that happen.

[747heavy]

....but the underwear is still the old Porsche Carrera GT..which looks quite outdated ...and blacksmith work ..I beg your pardon...I have to admit i have not seen the 918 in the flesh... its a lot of money.

well tastes are probablly different, which is a good thing, but what makes an Carrera GT a blacksmith work in your opinion?
Anyway, I would take one any time...

[xpensive]

...
And the SLR and its various incarnations had heaps of Stuttgart engineers scouring over every detail, and in some cases overriding Woking.

So reliability is a bit of a grey area for them.
...

Of all the rubbish..tell me your joking JET?

Truth is that Mercedes engineers wanted a chrome-steel tubular frame, a de dion rearaxle, inboard front brakes and their flat-12 from Group-C in the SLR, legend has it that it almost came to blows between the two camps at times!

[Pup]

Now, now, X. Jet has a good point about the engine mounts.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Xpensive

I aint kidding mate. Gordon Murray was tearing his hair out everytime the concept was put up to Mercedes and brought back with red ink over his original designs.

"vee vil not stand for zis schiesser" where cries that could be heard coming from Stuttgart

At the end of the day Murray makes brittle supercars and not overweight GT's.
Mercedes would not have a manual, they insisted on Automatic. There are various other incidents you can find where Woking and Stuttgart crossed swords.

Literally ever screw and part that went on that car had a to have a commitee of Mercedes and Mclaren engineers agree before it went on to the SLR.

Suffice to say the SLR didnt come out that bad. Overweight yea...kinda ugly too.
From the back anyway. But didnt it sound good...

[Pup]

I never thought it was very good looking from any angle. I've always hoped that in actuality McLaren had very little to do with the car.

BTW, I think the new SL sounds a bit flat as well. Flatulent, one might say.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

And xpensive,

Take a little look at what AMG can do for half the price of Mclaren's SLR.
...if Im not mistaken, SLS waiting list is now stretching 18 months.

3000 people registered interest in the macca? Mercedes have already bettered that in actual sales I would guess

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I never thought it was very good looking from any angle. I've always hoped that in actuality McLaren had very little to do with the car.

BTW, I think the new SL sounds a bit flat as well. Flatulent, one might say.

It was a bastardised concept that was very far from what both Mclaren and Mercedes wanted. You reckon the SLS sounds flat?

[Richard]

It is silly to compare cash flow for a start up company making its first product with an existing company with a steady stream of development supported by sales of existing models.