The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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myurr wrote:To save us going round and round in circles, can we take a look at one new aspect that is suddenly appearing in this thread and others: that Ferrari went with a modified push rod suspension because they didn't have time and / or resources to develop a pull rod suspension. It's been said several times now as an excuse as to why Ferrari didn't just run with a pull rod setup.

So taking it as a given that Ferrari, one of the best resourced teams on the grid, did not have time / resources to be able to develop a pull rod suspension layout in the last year that they've been developing the F150 and the last two years that they've been looking at and evaluating the pull rod. Would it not follow that other teams up and down the grid that are not as well resourced, and that have not bought the solution from Red Bull, will also not have had the time or resources to develop a pull rod suspension system? So a prediction of yours would be that all the other teams, except Lotus, will also stick with the push rod?

After all if Ferrari don't have time to develop such a system and therefore have to resort to trying to make their push rod layout have some of the benefits of the pull rod, then other teams such as Mercedes, McLaren, Renault, Force India, Williams, etc. will have to resort to something similar or even just stick with a bog standard push rod layout.

My opinion, for what it's worth, and prediction is that Ferrari developed their push rod system as the pull rod held disadvantages for them with their car and overall philosophy making a developed push rod the better solution for them, and that at least one other team on the grid will have developed their own pull rod solution proving it can be done. I have no idea if all those teams will make the switch, but as I said waaay before the Ferrari launch I would not be surprised or alarmed if any of those teams stuck with the push rod system. I believe the difference between the two solutions is marginal, with both having their own sets of advantages and disadvantages, and with neither of them being an automatic or no brainer choice.

Lest we forget that Torro Rosso also ran a pull rod layout last year and the only teams they could beat were the three new ones that were new to F1 and had half the time to design and build their cars as the established teams. If it makes such a difference why did Torro Rosso suck so bad?
I agree with the whole of your post, except for the last paragraph :mrgreen: I have an easy counterargument in that they would have been even slower with a pushrod :mrgreen:
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myurr
myurr
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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raymondu999 wrote:I agree with the whole of your post, except for the last paragraph :mrgreen: I have an easy counterargument in that they would have been even slower with a pushrod :mrgreen:
Heh, fair enough. Let's discount that then :)

csponton
csponton
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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Push Rod o Pull Rod??
In the 2009 season, the DT Red Bull, Adrian Newey has shown in Formula 1 a concept of suspension, which was no longer used for several years: the so-called pull-rod suspension.

About 20 years ago, the suspensions were all pull-rod and were introduced by Murray. Evolution of the suspensions were a rocker. With the increase in torsional rigidity of the car, the balance of the suspension becomes too flexible so that the elastic component of the suspension was made by the budget. And this is harmful because it does not control. Murray decided to do, then, a very short barbell. The motion was given by a strut inclined. As a material is subjected to stretch does not cause (within limits), an inclined strut suspension gave much greater stiffness.
But given the limits given by the diameter of the rim fixed by regulation 13 inches, the strut could not be tilted too much. At that point, they decided to reverse the drift, and to raise the frame front of the pilot. In this way, the strut angle became more and more diminished force component that generates flexion. All this was helped by the fact that since the 90's, the F1 had begun to lift the front of the case for aerodynamic reasons. So the new push-rod solution is perfectly in keeping with this need.
Little by little all the stables converted the front suspension and rear push-rod.
At the beginning of the year 2000, the designer Amidji Arrows brought back the pull-rod front suspension. This was done for aerodynamic reasons. In fact, since a strut supports better traction than the compression strut can have a smaller cross-sectional pull a suspension. This was supposed to help the aerodynamics combined with a muzzle lower than usual. But the solution was unsuccessful and returned to the push.


Why has returned to the pull rod suspension?

With the advent of double decker speakers introduced by Williams, Toyota and Brawn at the beginning of the 2009 season, this suspension solution was the most likely to create more space in the back and make sure that the speakers is the most effective possible. Note that the only Red Bull and the "sister" Toro Rosso use this suspension system, in fact, have the rear speaker much more effective than the other teams that use the push rod suspension system. In my opinion, next year, even if the speakers double decker will be banned by regulation, many teams remember well a pull rod suspension system. As described can be understood better by looking at the drawings below, you see the free space above the gearbox that can be used to go to feed the speaker by increasing the downforce in the rear.


What is it and how does a suspension?


First, the term "suspension" means the so-called "unsprung weight", ie the set of bodies interposed between ground and car body (sprung mass). The suspension, in a vertical direction, have the task of absorbing the undulations of the ground accelerations, to transmit to or from the soil weight, aerodynamic measures, the transfer of cargo. In most people the task of transmitting, horizontally, or from the ground to the braking, aerodynamics, engines, centrifuges. Second, suspensions retain and control the trim of the car (for example, the height of the bottom of the track). The suspensions also interact directly with the steering linkage and steering angles (toe, camber, caster spindle is longitudinal and transverse steering, trail, etc..), Which should not vary in roll, pitch, shaking and all driving conditions.

How do the suspension?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_q7PJ1h ... r_embedded

The push-rod has a kickstand, working in compression: it transmits the drive and connects the bottom of the upright to the bar (or rocker) which controls the spring-damper and torsion bar / damper. The pull-rod, in contrast, presents a tie, who works in traction and drives the spring-damper or shock absorber of torsion-bar: it transmits the drive and connects the top of the upright to the bar (or rocker) which controls the spring-damper and torsion bar / damper.

All this is available in classic double wishbone pattern. It is now general practice for some years, spring to install two sets \ torsion-bar front and rear shocks (in the past, the shock was also used), connected to a third element, a third shock in charge of monitoring the height and the inclination of the car from the ground. This third element, which is inherited from Indy cars (just to reiterate that it is not the only F1 to export ideas and technology ...), was introduced for the first time in F1 in 1994 by Alan Jenkins on Arrows. To this, add the ever-useful anti-roll bars, the size very small.

The location of the spring groups \ torsion bar / damper is one of the most obvious differences between push-pull-rod and rod. The push-rod, which provides a strut and thus the need to place the groups spring \ torsion bar / damper above the rider's legs (by binding to the body and placing them lengthwise or just apart), goes well with so-called "musical high, "in vogue in F1 since the early 90's, in the wake of the revolutionary Tyrrell 019. The need to free the bottom of the muzzle, so that you face a sheet of air to flow more abundant and less perturbed towards the bottom of the car, is one factor that has contributed, from the 90's, to phase out all the pull-rod ' Anterior to the push-rod.

The push-rod also allows rapid control measures and less complicated, it is sufficient, in fact, remove the upper body of the snout to access the strut \ torsion bar / damper, an operation that, in contrast, requires a lot more work for a pull-rod.

The pull-rod, for its part, has the advantage of very small dimensions, so much for the linkage (which section is much thinner than a push-rod strut) and for the general height of the entire system, thus resulting in benefits the center of gravity. The pull-rod, in fact, draws a very clean, aerodynamic, tapered and tapered.

It is for this reason that Newey, for his Red Bull RB5 and RB6, opted for a pull-rod rear aerodynamic cleaner, less disturbed airflow directly behind the rear wing, lower sides at the rear Coca Cola and more tapered, lower center of gravity. All this, without affecting the efficiency of the car and the bottom of the extractor.

On the current Formula 1 cars, take a pull-rod front operation would now be almost impossible. The musical, in fact, are too high (even uphill!) And dug too inferiorly to accommodate groups spring \ torsion bar / damper. Not by chance, that released later the lower area of the snout to accoglirere also possible aerodynamic and flow direction, has been eliminated as a central keel attachment for the lower triangle of the suspension. The latter, therefore, are bound directly to the body: it is for this reason that the triangles are on the downside. Not only that: the rod, in addition, is practically level (actually, more like a push-rod strut!), Ineffective and therefore subjected to abnormal stress, more than they are already in "normal" pull-push rod with respect to the strut -rod, which due to its marked inclination, is able to withstand higher stresses.

Later, however, as there is more space, you can have fun: pull and push-rod-rod, but also the positioning of strut \ torsion bar / damper very different and original.

In addition, Red Bull RB6 take extreme geometries in terms of suspension. For example, the strut front push-rod is not anchored to the ends of the lower triangle, but directly to the upright. Solution that, combined with other "found" by Newey (calipers lying horizontally at the bottom, etc..) Means that in this area are concentrated loads and stresses which are relevant.

Ultimately, it is the best push-rod or pull-rod?

There is no right answer and final. Both types are reliable, functional, profitable equivalent. As often happens, the choice of either scheme depends only on the will and eslusivamente and Evaluation of the project. And, as often happens when it comes to car technology, there are no dogmas, but only alternative.

Here's a video that explains in detail the operation of the rear suspension of the Red Bull RB5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 1x0tAV0w9A

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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Thomas Aquinas comes to my mind... How many posts can dance in the head of a rod?

Has anyone mentioned that Ferrari needed the space in the back of a car? They abandoned their compact SACHS dampers a couple of years ago.
Ciro

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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"Oh, Ferrari have lots of resources so it would have been easy for them to implement a pull-rod system, ergo they've come up with the right solution" is not a credible argument. It's the sort of amateur reasoning we get a lot of round here now.

People act like implementing a different rear suspension system that you have no experience of is easy for a top team. Like I've said before, and which has obviously fallen on deaf ears, if you commit to a pull-rod layout then you have to go the full nine yards. Every component in the back of your car, and especially the gearbox, needs to be designed for size, angle and shape to make it work. Red Bull had a new gearbox project going well in advance of 2009 - for the sole purpose of accommodating this layout. You then need to be sure that the whole set up is reliable, which is probably what scared Ferrari off and what might scare other teams off. Sacrificing some short-term reliability to make something pay off is going to make them leary. It doesn't make the process any easier no matter how many resources you have.

People are not grokking just what's involved here. The rear end of a Formula 1 car is so finely tuned now that you have no room for any manoeuvre whatsoever. If you can't make something (and it only needs to be one to scupper it) in the rear of your car the right size and shape then you can't do it.
"There are different possibilities - one is for aero volumes and we have found a way, which is not so visible on the car right now, to reduce the volume of the push rod suspension in an extreme way.

"That means we could reduce the rear volume, so our version is far more compact compared to the previous ones. We believe we have reached a similar level of packaging to the other ones."
What Nikolas Tombazis is describing here is a compromised push-rod configuration where he believes that they've achieved the same level of packaging than the other ones - meaning Red Bull and their rear end. I love the way he can't even bring himself to refer to them.

I'll be interested to see exactly what they've come up with, because you can only put suspension components in certain places before it becomes economical to either push or pull. Certainly with the rear end and the 'coke bottle' profile we've seen so far, they've failed.

myurr
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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So segedunum, do you believe that no other team will be able to make the switch? That is unless they buy the Red Bull back end like Torro Rosso and Team Lotus.

Jersey Tom
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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segedunum wrote:People act like implementing a different rear suspension system that you have no experience of is easy for a top team.
Image
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humble sabot
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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Frankly, i'm amazed at this thread.
This is not really something to get your panties in a bunch over.
All the salient points have been made by people who feel they have to put somebody else in their place, be it a board member or a formula 1 team that hasn't implemented a pull rod suspension.

It's not a big deal one way or the other.
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static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
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ringo
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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It's not a big deal, but it's still worth exploring. There have been discussions on brake caliper location, mirrors and even steering wheels.

As it relates to the push rod's advantage over the pull for ferrari, no one has yet to say. We will just have to wait for ferrari. I have the inclination it was simply due to continuity and sticking to the devil you know.

Image
The compensation is very clear in this shot. Contrary to what Myur says, it's very wide, now that is more towards the engine it can afford to be wider than if it was on the gearbox.
The funny thing it's still not packaged better than the single diffuser Rb5 system.

Image
this is what a single diffuser adapted pull rod achieves. It was supposed to have KERS, so i don't know how that would affect the suspension with the bigger fuel tank, but it's a good comparison nonetheless.

ferrari maybe didn't want any interference with the exhuast and the cooling flow. They put most of their cooling through the sidepod unlike last year where most of it seemed to be through the engine cover.
That seems like a good reason not to have a bar in the flow.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/RB12.jpg
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raymondu999
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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James Key on why he went push rod http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89160
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myurr
myurr
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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Well looks like Renault had the ability to produce a pull rod car, which in my view rubbishes the view that Ferrari were unable to resulting in them instead 'botching' together an improved push rod system. Clearly Ferrari were able to make the switch but came up with what they think is the better solution.

Giblet
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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myurr wrote:So segedunum, do you believe that no other team will be able to make the switch? That is unless they buy the Red Bull back end like Torro Rosso and Team Lotus.

That entire argument is fundamentally wrong, as Red Bull were able to switch to Pull Rod so any other top team should be able to as well. Trying to imagine Mclaren saying around a meeting table "this whole pull rod thing is too magical for us to understand, so we will be staying with push rod until we can figure it out"

It's laughable really. Frikkin 1Malaysia figured it out, and all they had was a gear box with mounting points.
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myurr
myurr
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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That is what I was trying to point out. It's laughable to think that Ferrari only stuck with the push rod design because they didn't have time / .resources to move to pull rod. Yet that is what is being argued by some of those who believe that the pull rod is some kind of magical device that all teams should run without question, and can't see why Ferrari would go with a 'non-optimal solution'.

My personal belief is that there's nothing to choose between the two, they just have different trade offs - leading to teams selecting one or the other based on other aspects and compromises on their car.

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ringo
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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Haha, trying to turn the page. :lol: Ferrari were scared of using it, that's all.

Don't change your opinion, you came out with guns blazing when the ferrari was revealed. Talking about advantages that never existed, like packaging advantages for push rod etc.
When things look unpredictable you jump back on the fence until the dust settles.


It's a compromise:

sauber on their car with ferrari gearbox.
"It's got these forward swept push-rod design, which is kind of a nice compromise because it means you've got access to all the bits and pieces on top of the box to set the car up, and it frees up the volume at the back of the car for the diffuser, which is one of the compromises for the gearbox design.

"So we've obviously taken the points that we get from the gearbox and we've designed our own solutions on top of the gearbox, so it's our suspension design but in line with Ferrari's."
Ferrari have pushed their bizzaro gearbox unto other teams. They have no choice but to use it. They don't seem too elated that they have to live with the compromises. if it means working on the car easier then what the heck.
Clearly there is no performance advantage here. Just an advantage in getting the car out of the garage quickly. The area in the gearbox is an uknown, and i guess we'll have to hear from ferrari about that.

One thing i notice though, the engine type seems to play a big role in the gearbox and suspension selection. It's easier for the teams to go with a ready made drive train package.

I mentioned the tyres before, and it's connected to changing setups quickly in practice.
He believes the design will be especially beneficial to cope with the unknown demands of the new Pirelli tyres.

"I think it helps," he said. "There is going to come a point when they get a direction on this, and then it will be less of an issue, but it seems to work pretty well.

"It makes everything accessible, which is important for the tyres. And to be honest I think that the way is set up, you have all the volume at the front of the gearbox. It's really a small box, it's a very neat design from Ferrari."

Key also claimed the design meant compromises from an aerodynamic point of view.

"No, not at all. It looks okay, we are fairly happy with it. Before we knew which direction Ferrari were heading into, we sort of expected what the pushrod would do in the wind-tunnel. And it was okay and there wasn't any big for going from pull-rod to pushrod."
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Giblet
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Re: The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension in 2011

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You are only arguing with yourself at this point, we understand your stance, no need to keep on about it.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute