2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Delete duplicate post.
Last edited by J.A.W. on 27 Jul 2017, 06:48, edited 1 time in total.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 06:13
Hello J.A.W.

You write:
“I can confidently state from experience, that no, the clutch won't fail..
..indeed a 2nd gear 'burn-out'.. being a 'grandstanding/showboating' spectacle that deliberately..
..(abused the machine)..by being held stationary on the front brake, kept spinning, & brake, slowly released..
..made for a typical young 'motorhead' sensory display of 'skill/foolhardiness'.”


With the rear tire slipping on the road, during launching, not only with the 1st gear but also with the 2nd gear, I wonder what is the meaning for using the 1st gear?

Reasonably the best time for 0-400m (a quarter of a mile) should be achievable starting with 2nd gear (and so avoiding the 1st to 2nd gear shift).

Do I miss something?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
Hi Manolis..

Not really..
..the only thing you "missed" - was the intent of 'grandstanding/showboating' - a form of 'showing off'..

Some young people do a 'poseur' act by parading in fancy 'designer' clothes & accessories..
..or if wealthy, in a Ferrari sporty car, or something of the like, (even if its dad's )..

For bike guys, doing such 'stunts' was a ' bit of fun' put on to 'impress' your mates/buddies, & the 'chicks'..
plus annoy the 'old fogies/squares' & 'pigs/cops'.. who already hated you, anyway..

2nd gear simply spun the tyre faster, making more noise/smoke - to match what the engine was doing..

( but in comp 1/4 mile events, a 2nd gear 'burnout' did also rapidly clean/heat the tyre - for max traction).
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Pinger.

You write:
“but it seems you have added 'kickdown' functionality to the simple CVT. A first I think.”


Yes, you can consider the PatBox CVT as adding, among others, 'kickdown' functionality to the conventional CVT.

The kickdown can be automatic, manual stepless, or manual having a number of discrete ratios.

Image



By adding, to a long-geared-CVT, the controllable “kickdown” functionality of the PatBox, you can “have it all”:

Most of the time the vehicle goes “automatic”, smoothly, quietly, reliably and at good mileage.
And when the rider / driver wants more, he has the PatBox lever to control the gear ratio.

As the maker (a third party) of the first PatBox prototype wrote:

“Tonight I went to the store.
Coming back I had to gun it uphill to catch the yellow.
The bike just went uphill so fast compared to my other tune I had on it.
It is nice to let the gearing do the work sometimes, and let the revs work other times.




You also write:
“Possibly on scooters this problem wont arise but on a high powered sled I suspect shortening of belt life wouldn't be welcomed.”


Quote from http://www.snowmobile.com/blog/2017/01/ ... rives.html :

A snowmobile drive system is incredibly simple.
As Comet technicians explained:
“The drive clutch is activated by centrifugal force from the engine crankshaft. The movable sheave of the clutch is forced in as the RPM of the engine is increased. This contacts the drive belt. The drive belt will then be forced to a larger diameter within the clutch sheaves, thus pulling it to a smaller diameter within the driven unit sheaves. The movable sheave of the driven unit is forced out, allowing the belt to seek its smaller, high speed ratio diameter. As this happens, the speed from the engine transferred to the final drive is increased.”


Excluding the higher power of the modern sleds, are there any other real differences from the scooter CVT’s?


It is interesting here to note that the force F the auxiliary belt has to apply on the V-belt in order the V-belt to run at a smaller diameter in the front pulley (kickdown) is not strong because this force acts directly, at the correct direction (radially).

In comparison, if you had to do the same (i.e. to shift the V-belt at a smaller diameter in the front pulley) by pushing closer to each other the two halves of the rear pulley, the required axial force on the movable half of the rear pulley is some four times larger (because it acts axially and because of the cone-angle of the pulleys used).


The PatBox seems capable to change the game not only in the scooters (which is a huge market), but also in the high powered sleds, too, because in both cases it turns the, now, “uncontrollable” CVT into a controlled CVT transmission that, without adding significant complication (or cost, or friction), corrects several weaknesses of the conventional CVT’s.


It also seems the PatBox CVT has the required characteristics (the simplicity of its control is one of them) to replace the current multi-gear-ratios gearboxes in the bicycles.

Image

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello J.A.W.

You write:
"2nd gear simply spun the tyre faster, making more noise/smoke - to match what the engine was doing..
( but in comp 1/4 mile events, a 2nd gear 'burnout' did also rapidly clean/heat the tyre - for max traction)."


Sorry but I don't get it, yet.

If with both gears the rear tire is slipping on the road (burnout), theory says that the 2nd gear is a better choice for getting the minimum time for, say, 0-400m.

Forget the wear of the engine, of the clutch, or of the rear tire; forget also the difficulty for the rider; the only that matters is the minimum time.

Are there any data showing that the launching with 1st gear is faster than the launching with 2nd gear?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hi Manolis..
..a standard sports-road machine will, for sure, cover a 1/4 more quickly using 1st gear..
..as for unfettered race machines.. the whole deal may be swapped around - to find the optimum set-up..

..a possibility being.. that if the balance between close 3-4-5-6 ratios gets better times - with a shorter final drive..
..then 1st, if it is then too low, may be efficaciously by-passed..

You could try a model run in the 'motorcycle performance analyzer' program after deleting 1st gear.
& perhaps the the other 'plug in' parameters - can be manipulated to account for tyre spin/hook-up..

In general, some % (10-15) of tyre spin will likely produce best times, but judging just how much, is a matter of trial..
..or a sophisticated 'launch control' program.. & then again.. even the Moto GP boys can still.. 'fluff' - their starts..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello J.A.W.


Unless I am wrong, the only difference is that with the 2nd gear the rear tire spins faster and slips faster on the road.

Maybe the coefficient of friction drops slightly when the slipping speed between the rear tire and the road increases, making preferable the 1st gear for launching



So, with 2nd gear, we should achieve similar slipping of the rear tire as with the 1st gear.

The ideal rider would keep the engine at the maximum torque revs with 2nd gear, would keep the throttle wide open, and would work the clutch to take, in the clutch, a part of the slippage of the rear tire, so that the rear tire to slip on the road as much as with the 1st gear.
Avoiding the 1st to 2nd shift, and keeping the accelerating force at maximum, the times cannot help from dropping.



Alternatively, with the modern sensors and electronics (say a system similar to the existing ABS), one can keep the rear tire just before the burnout, and get a little more grip (in most cases the coefficient of friction maximizes just before the start of the slipping between the two bodies).
In such a case, the use of the 2nd gear from the beginning of the launching seems preferable.


Just some thoughts.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Perhaps Manolis..
..but bear in mind that current 1000cc sports-bikes - which are usually oriented towards 'homologation' for FIM racing..
..are factory fitted - with very high 1st gear ratios, & thus rely on light weight & vast power to get off the mark quickly..

As an example, even nine years ago, Cycle-World tested a road-sports Kawasaki ZX-10..
.. which went 0-60 mph in 2.84 sec, 0-100 mph in 5.22 sec ( with one gearshift - into 2nd) & 0-150 mph in 10.00 sec..
..to top out at (an electronically limited) 184.53 mph, after passing the 180 mph mark - in 17.21 sec..

These machines were sold with an ECU power-taming program for the lower gears..
& for which, the 'after-market' sells a by-pass..

Nowadays, makers such as BMW provide the rider with switchable 'mapping' options, of varying intensity,
& like Ducati has done for decades, an ultra-costly (for a road-bike) real ' FIM race homologation' spec machine..

Of course, (& in an attempt to get back on topic) the advent of these 'Moore's law' ECU/machine management devices.. could/ought to be applied to a current spec 2T, & thus also offer its inherent avantages in specific output/mass etc..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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another factor in the current argument for eg starting in 2nd gear .......

rotational energy in the engine and transmission is substantial and on upshifts not conserved or poorly conserved
eg so why start in 1st ? - you're just wasting acceleration having an unnecessary shift
high tyre slip is inefficient but that is probably worse in 1st

the CVT preserves that rotational energy and releases it usefully at the end of the acceleration
it can be rather large and even dangerous eg if overtaking vehicles one at a time in a stream of traffic
the modern TC auto emulates the CVT but doesn't conserve that energy

an erstwhile colleague started drag racing after meeting the late E.J. Potter and his (belt-drive) motorcycle in 1966
this has some relevance http://silodrome.com/ej-potter-v8-dragb ... owmaker-7/
has processing EJ footage revealed the tyre slip he generated ?
(anyway he was exhibition running not race running, trailing smoke for 440 yd was his USP)
traction control/'stutter box' would have suited his machine
there was a similar machine (in Australia ?) that had a TC in the rear wheel

bicycle CVT
an (internal) hub gear CVT (Nuvinci ?) exists - I assume it has a fixed frictional base from the preload built in
presumably the belt CVT has less base friction and more load-dependent friction
(ok derailleur friction varies within the range from out-of-line effects)
with CVT also there can/will be ratio variation within the pedalling cycle ? which could confuse or worse ?

2 stroke torque
isn't Pinger wrong if exemplifying the 2 stroke eg the 850 Saab as unusually 'torquey' via reference to the peak engine torque ?
propulsion is due to axle torque ie crankshaft torque amplified by the gearing
so the 2 stroke's lower rpm means its crankshaft torque is amplified less (than the 4 stroke's torque)

Pinger
Pinger
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Joined: 13 Apr 2017, 17:28

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 09:33

2 stroke torque
isn't Pinger wrong if exemplifying the 2 stroke eg the 850 Saab as unusually 'torquey' via reference to the peak engine torque ?
propulsion is due to axle torque ie crankshaft torque amplified by the gearing
so the 2 stroke's lower rpm means its crankshaft torque is amplified less (than the 4 stroke's torque)
I don't think Pinger is wrong! Not least, as Pinger didn't mention rpm.

Apart from super/turbo charged examples, 4T torque peak numbers (in lbs.ft) are lower than their hp numbers. The NA anomalies are those with low peak power due to low rpm.
But if one did produce equal numbers, then likely as not the manufacturer would make some grandiose claim about its driveability telling us that say, 80% of its torque peak is available between x rpm and y rpm.

Lets say we go looking for torque numbers from the Saab unit equal to its hp (ie 40lbs.ft). Then we find that 40lbs.ft minimum is available between 1000 and 4800rpm. So, over a broader range than the 4T, it provides more torque (equal to its hp, not 80% of its hp) when compared with a 4T of the same power. That it has a torque peak some 50% greater than the 4T can muster and, as it will not be compelled to cruise in an inordinately high ratio as must the 4T (throttling losses) the choice remains to run at 4T ratios with a crankshaft torque advantage or - as BSFC improves with increased rpm - run a lower ratio and have an even greater torque available at the drive axle. Not to mention instantaneous throttle response without the need for a down shift.

As I previously asked - what's not to like?

Pinger
Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 06:48

Excluding the higher power of the modern sleds, are there any other real differences from the scooter CVT’s?
Conceptually the same but the sled primary clutch is way more sophisticated in the way it utilises not just weights but the geometry of the mechanism on which they act. The Aaen book explains it all.

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Pinger

You write:
"but the sled primary clutch is way more sophisticated in the way it utilises not just weights but the geometry of the mechanism on which they act."


The PatBox "doesn't care" about the inner structure of the primary clutch (sophisticated or not).

The way the PatBox controls the transmission ratio of a CVT is by the auxiliary belt that rides on a part of the external periphery of the V-belt and makes the V-belt to run in a smaller diameter on the front pulley when required.


Now that several things regarding the PatBox (functionality, simplicity, reliability, efficiency etc) have been clarified, what is the worst you see in it?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers

You write:
"bicycle CVT
an (internal) hub gear CVT (Nuvinci ?) exists - I assume it has a fixed frictional base from the preload built in
presumably the belt CVT has less base friction and more load-dependent friction
(ok derailleur friction varies within the range from out-of-line effects)
with CVT also there can/will be ratio variation within the pedalling cycle ? which could confuse or worse ?"


The NuVinci CVT:

Image

Image

Image


The PatBox CVT:

Image

Image

Image


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Pinger
Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 19:04
The PatBox "doesn't care" about the inner structure of the primary clutch (sophisticated or not).
But it will.
The primary clutch is dominant in controlling shiftout - which is a synonym for acceleration. ''Aggressive'' shiftout is what enables sleds to accelerate so hard. The downside is the lack of sensitivity to backshift - which your design counters. But only when up to speed. First, you must accelerate there and the primary and its fine tuning is paramount in optimising that.

manolis wrote:
27 Jul 2017, 19:04
Now that several things regarding the PatBox (functionality, simplicity, reliability, efficiency etc) have been clarified, what is the worst you see in it?
Assuming it doesn't put additional compressive stress on the belt which jeopardises its longevity (the constant bending and pinching puts a lot of heat into the belt) then nothing worse than that.

Market acceptance is a different thing though. Scooters employ CVT precisely because it is fully automatic requiring no rider input - 'twist 'n' go' - so not really seeing a market there. Slightly further up the two-wheeled food-chain there exists a bike (Aprilia?) that employs CVT under electronic control via servo motors. A known quantity to them and requiring less rider input - they might be more inclined to make the extra step and utilise it - despite another increase in cost.
Sleds? A few years ago when I researched CVT with 'kickdown' there was little appetite for improvement. Team Industries were offering a secondary clutch which claimed (I don't doubt them) to improve backshift without hurting shiftout, The consensus with sledders on the forum (I discussed it with them on) was that the TI clutch wasn't worth the extra money. $400 vs $300 were the ballpark numbers IIRC. You would have to build one into a sled and demonstrably prove its superiority to stand a chance of convincing them. Not easy unless you feel inclined to spend six months of your life knee deep in snow....

manolis
manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Pinger.

The Suzuki Burgman 650 SECVT (Suzuki Electronically-controlled Continuously Variable Transmission) is the first scooter with electronically controlled CVT.


Quote from http://www.suzukimotorcycles.com.au/ran ... eaturesfor the Suzuki Burgman 650 SECVT:

By just toggling buttons on the handlebars, you can choose three distinct transmission modes: two fully automatic modes (Drive and Power) and Manual. Drive mode heightens efficiency at normal road speeds and gives smooth, linear, almost shock-free power delivery for easy riding. Power mode gives more punch when you twist the throttle. And Manual mode lets you thumb-toggle between five preset gear ratios for a unique feeling of control.

All new Eco Drive Indicator to encourage riding that may reduce environmental impacts. The Eco Drive Indicator light, located on the instrument panel, will come on when the vehicle is operated in a fuel-efficient manner - and may help riders learn techniques to improve their fuel economy.

End of Quote.

Image

Several years later, Aprilia, under the license of Suzuki, created the Aprilia Mana 850 (SECVT), which is something between motorcycle and scooter (the final transmission is by chain and sprockets).



What the “controllable” SECVT offers as compared to the conventional “uncontrollable” CVT’s of scooters and sleds?

It offers control.

Control over the fully automatic operation: because the rider can choose between different modes of operation (a drive mode (for economy) and the power mode (for performance)).

Control over the manual operation: “Manual mode lets you thumb-toggle between five preset gear ratios for a unique feeling of control.”

It also offers to the rider ways to achieve greener operation (EcoDrive Indicator).

And why the rest scooters are not using a SECVT to improve their economy and performance?
Because it is too expensive. It adds some US2,000$ in the price of the Suzuki Burgman.
And because its complicated structure and control proved, in the long term, not trouble free (and quit expensive in repairs).



And what the PatBox offers?

Just like the SECVT of Suzuki, it offers control over the CVT.

As in the Suzuki Burgman 650 SECVT, the PatBox offers a number of fully automatic modes (economy mode, power mode etc), also a sequential “manual transmission” mode, also a continuous manual mode (not offered by the SECVT).

As for the increase of the cost of a scooter with the PatBox, it is more than a dozen times lower that the cost added by the SECVT of Suzuki.

And because of its simplicity, and of the way it functions, the overall reliability of the scooter or sled improves.




Regarding the sleds:

No matter how sophisticated the clutch of a sled is,
it is just a mechanical clutch.

And as such, it cannot guess what the rider / driver really wants.

If it could, Suzuki’s and Aprilia’s engineers would be stupid to add the complication and cost of the SECVT to get the same a sophisticated clutch of a sled can offer / do.

So, the sleds, just like the scooters, do need control over their CVT’s. They will be better vehicles when their “uncontrollable” CVT turns to “controllable”.




Worth to mention here:

As the auxiliary belt presses the V-belt deeper in the front pulley (in order to provide a shorter transmission ratio than the ratio the CVT gives at the specific revs and load), the over-clamping of the V-belt in the front pulley increases, while the over-clamping in the rear pulley decreases (because the spring of the rear pulley extends).

If we start with a long-geared-CVT, when the V-belt runs at smaller diameters in the front pulley (because the auxiliary belt of the PatBox pushes it deeper), the additional over-clamping in the front pulley is welcome / necessary.



EDIT PS:

In order to turn a CVT into a long-geared-CVT, one can replace the "weights" of the variatorr by heavier ones, so that, at the same rpm, the centrifugal forces acting on them to increase, which in turn causes (by the weights moving on the ramps of the variator) the axial force on the movable half of the front pulley to increase, which in turn pushes the (constant length) V-belt to run at a bigger diameter in the front pulley and, consequently, at a smaller diameter in the rear pulley, which in turn causes the further compression of the spring of the rear pulley.


Another easier method is the replacement of the spring of the rear pulley by a softer one.

At normal conditions of operation, the softer spring enables longer ratios, it reduces the over-clamping of the V-belt and the CVT runs at lower friction and less wear of the V-belt.

And when the rider wants more (faster acceleration, motion along a steep uphill etc), he can, by means of the auxiliary belt and of the lever of the PatBox, press the V-belt to get deeper in the front pulley.
This increases the over-clampring in the front pulley (wherein the V-belt runs at smaller diameter), this also increases the amount of torque the V-belt can absorb from the engine without slipping.
The lower over-clampring of the V-belt in the rear pulley (due to the sofet spring) is OK because at the rear pulley the V-belt runs on bigger diameters when the transmission ratio gets shorter.

Image

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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manolis wrote:
28 Jul 2017, 06:42

And why the rest scooters are not using a SECVT to improve their economy and performance?
Because it is too expensive. It adds some US2,000$ in the price of the Suzuki Burgman.
Nope. Suzuki not SECVT add $2000 to the price. It will be costing Suzuki a fraction of that to add it.

Back to back comparisons between two scooters - with and without your modification - where the benefit of being able to force a backshift is demonstrated in mid speed acceleration should be enough to convince who you need to convince to invest in it.