FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[dans79]

One mode only huh, we're going back to like the sixties maybe early 70s. If memory serves, even in the 80s the drivers have the ability to change fuel ratio etc with a knob.

[63l8qrrfy6]

One mode only huh, we're going back to like the sixties maybe early 70s. If memory serves, even in the 80s the drivers have the ability to change fuel ratio etc with a knob.

they could change spark advance and mixture in the 30's!

[djos]

Because F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of technology, not historic racing.

Ti be honest, cars are freezed between quali and race. This is accepted since long time and is for many reasons a good rule. So I thing with the same principle it should be the same fo PU. Isn't it? Just coherence. Should have benn proposed before

My comment was directed at djos suggesting cable operated throttles or the like.

But to adress your point - it is the hardware that is frozen, yes. And the software is the same, just that different subsets of the same software are used between qualy and race. So how do you defined what is really frozen and what is not ?

No I didn’t suggest cable throttles, I suggested a single engine map for the whole race so they run full power all the time.

[dans79]

One mode only huh, we're going back to like the sixties maybe early 70s. If memory serves, even in the 80s the drivers have the ability to change fuel ratio etc with a knob.

they could change spark advance and mixture in the 30's!

Excellent job FIA you've given the driver's less control than their grandfathers had.....

[Wynters]

In the past TDs and slowing down of certain cars was ok, but now it hits Mercedes it is bad? The usual time was always middle of the season, please see the flexi wings, FRIC or the fuel flow last year as GOOD examples.

But it's not going to hit Mercedes more than the others, is it?

They seem to have the best engine. If you take away the highest engine mode, then they still have the best engine. But, instead of having the chance to create an engine offset with good driving and clever strategy, Mercedes will just have more power than the opposition all the time. I fail to see how removing the ability to outfox or outdrive Mercedes hurts Mercedes.

[63l8qrrfy6]

In the past TDs and slowing down of certain cars was ok, but now it hits Mercedes it is bad? The usual time was always middle of the season, please see the flexi wings, FRIC or the fuel flow last year as GOOD examples.

But it's not going to hit Mercedes more than the others, is it?

They seem to have the best engine. If you take away the highest engine mode, then they still have the best engine. But, instead of having the chance to create an engine offset with good driving and clever strategy, Mercedes will just have more power than the opposition all the time. I fail to see how removing the ability to outfox or outdrive Mercedes hurts Mercedes.

I don't think it affects Mercedes at all, they can afford to lose 0.5s in qualy and still be on pole and untouchable in the race in ordinary circumstances.

But it will affect its customer teams who need the extra tenths to be further up the grid. It will only really benefit Ferrari in their fight to the top of the midfield and perhaps help Alfa/Haas bridge the gap to the midfield.

[basti313]

In the past TDs and slowing down of certain cars was ok, but now it hits Mercedes it is bad? The usual time was always middle of the season, please see the flexi wings, FRIC or the fuel flow last year as GOOD examples.

But it's not going to hit Mercedes more than the others, is it?

They seem to have the best engine. If you take away the highest engine mode, then they still have the best engine. But, instead of having the chance to create an engine offset with good driving and clever strategy, Mercedes will just have more power than the opposition all the time. I fail to see how removing the ability to outfox or outdrive Mercedes hurts Mercedes.

I don't know. What I know is that I hate the 100 mode changes per race guided by the race engineer. I like the "no radio help" rule in DTM, it is really excellent. And bringing down this extreme guiding is going into this direction at least.

I share your opinion, that the Merc engine will be still ahead. But it may really get the field closer in Q, maybe let Merc loose a Q or two this season. This would help to keep the races more exciting and, for all the Ham fans that are afraid now: It would bring Ham further ahead of Bot if they do not start 1-2 every race as Bot can not overtake. So no fear guys. This season is anyways done, but imagine Ham has an early DNF next season...than you will pray for BOT not being on P1 or P2 every Q.

[siskue2005]

The main difference is that most (not all) of the previous TDs were clarifications of existing rules or clampdowns on obvious misinterpretations of the rules.

Of those three mentioned above:

Wings aren't supposed to flex - it's tested by doing X - wings still visibly flex - TD prohibits excessive flexing by mandating Y.
Perfectly fine.

There's a fuel flow limit - a team most likely cheats said limit - TD clarifies fuel flow limit rules and stops the circumvention of the rules.
Also fine.

FRIC was banned because a certain team had a better system than the others so the FIA issued a TD under the all encompassing "moveable aero" rule.
Kinda dirty.

Now we're at "we're too stupid to properly police the rules regarding the PU and PU operation and also *insert BS reasons*" ...

There also doesn't seem to be any real suspicion that Mercedes might be doing something illegal (contrary to Ferrari over the last few years) - and if there was, then surely the FIA could ask Mercedes to explain to them how their quali mode works and how it complies with the rules - just like they gave that chance to Ferrari.

exactly!

[henry]

No I didn’t suggest cable throttles, I suggested a single engine map for the whole race so they run full power all the time.

First you have to define what the “engine map” is composed of. Second they don’t run “full power”, that is the maximum a PU can generate (the magic 1000hp), for a full lap ever, not in qualification and definitely not in the race.

The PU has several distinct power levels depending on the way they combine ICE, MGU-K, MGU-H and waste-gates. Even if they use the same power mode for qualy and race there will be multiple power levels around a lap. The choice of when and for how long the various full throttle power levels are deployed during a lap is entirely under software control, that’s what the strategies do, amongst other things. This software is adaptive, it adjusts itself depending on the things it experiences. If the wind changes strength or direction in a race it changes the pattern of deployed power levels. It may also respond to tyre wear, fuel load or other things I don’t know about.

So now the FIA have to define the “map”. And figure out what things should be invariable, And how to monitor them. If they think monitoring fuel and electricity use is complex I’m not sure what they’ll make of PU modes.

[Pany]

In the past TDs and slowing down of certain cars was ok, but now it hits Mercedes it is bad? The usual time was always middle of the season, please see the flexi wings, FRIC or the fuel flow last year as GOOD examples.

But it's not going to hit Mercedes more than the others, is it?

They seem to have the best engine. If you take away the highest engine mode, then they still have the best engine. But, instead of having the chance to create an engine offset with good driving and clever strategy, Mercedes will just have more power than the opposition all the time. I fail to see how removing the ability to outfox or outdrive Mercedes hurts Mercedes.

In the worst case nothing will change, so why not a try?

[Pany]

The main difference is that most (not all) of the previous TDs were clarifications of existing rules or clampdowns on obvious misinterpretations of the rules.

Of those three mentioned above:

Wings aren't supposed to flex - it's tested by doing X - wings still visibly flex - TD prohibits excessive flexing by mandating Y.
Perfectly fine.

There's a fuel flow limit - a team most likely cheats said limit - TD clarifies fuel flow limit rules and stops the circumvention of the rules.
Also fine.

FRIC was banned because a certain team had a better system than the others so the FIA issued a TD under the all encompassing "moveable aero" rule.
Kinda dirty.

Now we're at "we're too stupid to properly police the rules regarding the PU and PU operation and also *insert BS reasons*" ...

There also doesn't seem to be any real suspicion that Mercedes might be doing something illegal (contrary to Ferrari over the last few years) - and if there was, then surely the FIA could ask Mercedes to explain to them how their quali mode works and how it complies with the rules - just like they gave that chance to Ferrari.

exactly!

Wrong! Anybody knows FIA tried to discover ferrari trick, but were not capable of. Hence, after mercedes-redbul protest, they force ferrari to explain what they did and went for the strange agreement they made this year without sanctions.

[Phil]

IMO - it's a political move by Ferrari (because Ferrari is the main and biggest beneficiary) and because with the engine regulations in place, there's little chance and hope for them to recover within the next 1.5 seasons.

[63l8qrrfy6]

IMO - it's a political move by Ferrari (because Ferrari is the main and biggest beneficiary) and because with the engine regulations in place, there's little chance and hope for them to recover within the next 1.5 seasons.

Yes, I originally thought this was brought on by Red Bull complaining about the gap in qualy but really they won't gain much while AT will definitely lose out in their fight with Ferrari powered cars.

[Juzh]

Racing will be worse, 2010 like. If there was little overtaking now, there will be none when this rules comes into effect. I dont get this rule at all, the urgency of it makes even less sense. We've had quali modes since 2014 but now suddenly it's become a problem? Smells fishy to say the least.

[Wynters]

for all the Ham fans that are afraid now: It would bring Ham further ahead of Bot if they do not start 1-2 every race as Bot can not overtake. So no fear guys. This season is anyways done, but imagine Ham has an early DNF next season...than you will pray for BOT not being on P1 or P2 every Q.

If I recall correctly, Bottas has finished, on average, more than a hundred points behind Hamilton in their seasons together.

If your real aim is to see Mercedes or Hamilton fail, then putting more emphasis on driver skill and experience might not be the best approach.

In the worst case nothing will change, so why not a try?

Because that's not the worst case. The worst case is that Mercedes is so far ahead in Quali that they will still dominate it anyway and, with this rule change, the cars behind have even less strategic options to achieve an overtake.