Singapore Night GP 2008

[Miguel]

I was extremely delighted to see Fernando win again. It was fantastic, it was great. It was even better because, once Rosberg cleared his stop/go penalty, it was pretty clear that only a mistake or a (gasp) safety car would prevent him from winning. But those were the two positives of the weekend (Fernando winning and Nico on the podium).

The negatives were, however, many. First of all, I find night races a terrible waste of energy just to satisfy us lazy europeans. We (fortunately) still don't know what would have happened in case of rain. I also think that the track layout sucks. A lot. I know Pedro Mtz de la Rosa agrees with me, because he said so during the race. Well, he was politically correct, so his sentence was more like "drivers weren't delighted with the lack of variety in corners: they are all 90º kinks". Another negative is that (new) street circuits are awful. I know this race was more entertaining than Valencia, but only because Piquet and Sutil managed to bring the safety car.

A point that must be made is that if overtaking in permanent circuits is difficult, street circuits put even more obstacles. Again pointing a comment made by de la Rosa: "Overtaking in a normal circuit is feasible when you have an advantage of 1 to 1.5s per lap. We have estimated the needed advantage in Singapore to be almost 5s". There is something wrong here. 5 seconds!! Even if it was half as much, what overtakings did we see? The williams and Alonso on Trulli (3-4s), Kubica on Massa with troubles and the most genuine of Hamilton on DC (with 1.5 s at least, and he almost didn't make it). This is a consequence of bumps and dirt off-line, and there was plenty of that in Singapore. Valencia was awful, and that was with a silky smooth track.

So please forgive my negative mood, but bumps plus 15 straight-angle kinks plus 4s advantage needed to overtake mean I don't get all the hype around Singapore.

[Ray]

It's quite obvious you can't see a very dangerous situation when it's presented to you. Massa was sitting perpindicular to oncoming traffic, at the end of a braking zone, around what is effectively a pretty blind corner, and there were cars coming even after Sutil. So you are saying that he should have presented the broad side of his car to the dangers of someone coming into that corner too hot and spearing his cockpit from the side with another cars nosecone. How in the hell does it make sense to do that?

I don't see how you can want punishment for a guy that prevented a more dangerous situation by sitting still in a blind corner with the front of his car in the racing line. You obviously have some sort of bias because you can't objectively observe the circumstances. I haven't said anything about Hmailtons conduct, which he did a fantastic job today staying out of trouble and just riding the race out like he should, so I don't know why you brought that up. Take a step back and look at the orientation that Massa was in, and put yourself in his shoes and think about what you'd do.

For a broadside accident Sutil would have had to had lost complete control of his car, if he'd just run a bit wide then at worst he would have taken Massa's nose off. Such an accident should have been impossible as it was under waved yellows so all drivers passing through that section should have been running slower and more cautiously than usual.

Had Massa stayed still then Sutil would have had enough room on the racing line to have made it past. Look at the replay again, the racing line is incredibly tight. And had Massa's nose been in the way then he himself wouldn't have been able to pull out like he did due to the F1 cars awful turning circle (even allowing for lighting up the rears to spin the car round, which Massa did slightly but not massively).

So by moving Massa, instead of avoiding an accident, caused one.

No, Sutil causeed an accident by losing control of his car and hitting the barrier, there was enough run off area he didn't have to spear the wall. Massa had no control over Sutils brakes, throttle, or steering. You're blaming Massa for Sutil not taking the runoff road.

[Saribro]

You're blaming Massa for Sutil not taking the runoff road.

Also, Bourdais had run into trouble in that same place, and he did take the runoff.

[myurr]

No, Sutil causeed an accident by losing control of his car and hitting the barrier, there was enough run off area he didn't have to spear the wall. Massa had no control over Sutils brakes, throttle, or steering. You're blaming Massa for Sutil not taking the runoff road.

That's quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Let me get this straight, you think Sutil should have taken to the slip road so that Massa could rejoin the circuit after crashing!? That's as stupid as Massa saying that Sutil should have given way to him in the pit lane in Valencia.

Had Massa stayed still then there wouldn't have been an accident - the simple fact is that he pulled out right into Sutils path causing him to have to take avoiding action. It was this swerve to avoid Massa that caused the accident (you can even just about make out his hands on the steering wheel, he's steering hard right just as he enters the frame followed by an almost immediate hard left to try and avoid the wall).

[woohoo]

Yes! It was Massa'a fault!

He DELIBERATELY crashed into the the wall, so that Sutil would crash into the same wall!!

Oh get real.
Massa's only option was to get away, and Sutil should have slowed down. Those yellow flags (or lights in this race) are there for a reason.

[myurr]

Yes! It was Massa'a fault!

He DELIBERATELY crashed into the the wall, so that Sutil would crash into the same wall!!

Oh get real.
Massa's only option was to get away, and Sutil should have slowed down. Those yellow flags (or lights in this race) are there for a reason.

That's not what I said - I never claimed that Massa deliberately crashed into the wall. My problem is what he did next, which was to rejoin the racetrack right into the path of another car.

Massa's only option should have been to stay put until it was safe to rejoin the track - he chose not to do that, instead pulling straight into Sutils path giving Sutil no option but to swerve into the wall to avoid hitting Massa.

[Ray]

No, Sutil causeed an accident by losing control of his car and hitting the barrier, there was enough run off area he didn't have to spear the wall. Massa had no control over Sutils brakes, throttle, or steering. You're blaming Massa for Sutil not taking the runoff road.

That's quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Let me get this straight, you think Sutil should have taken to the slip road so that Massa could rejoin the circuit after crashing!? That's as stupid as Massa saying that Sutil should have given way to him in the pit lane in Valencia.

Had Massa stayed still then there wouldn't have been an accident - the simple fact is that he pulled out right into Sutils path causing him to have to take avoiding action. It was this swerve to avoid Massa that caused the accident (you can even just about make out his hands on the steering wheel, he's steering hard right just as he enters the frame followed by an almost immediate hard left to try and avoid the wall).

Seems to me that Sutil could have straightlined that corner if, like you claim, Massa knew he was coming and Sutil could see him in enough time to turn right(in a left hand corner?) and then back left again to avoid the wall. I'd like to think Adrain Sutil is smart enough to realize if he hadn't turned either way and gone straight he would have avoided hitting anything, including Massa. And the racing line in that corner is very very narrow and they pretty much hug the wall coming out after hitting the apex. So no matter if he sat still or moved he was in the racing line in a dangerous spot. The only way to avoid being hit by another car was to move.

As far as you saying that was a ridiculous statement, have you read anything else I've posted? I'm full of ridiculous statements!

[Harrelson]

Why is everyone saying that this GP was fantastic? It was horrible beyond words. A train of cars 5sec a lap faster than Trulli and yet they cant overtake. Horrifying!

I say no more to street tracks and more of SPA type tracks and we wont need these new regulations

[gcdugas]

Why is everyone saying that this GP was fantastic? It was horrible beyond words. A train of cars 5sec a lap faster than Trulli and yet they cant overtake. Horrifying!

I say no more to street tracks and more of SPA type tracks and we wont need these new regulations

Nothing of consequence has been done to rectify this in the last 10 years. It isn't the tracks entirely though bad ones (Hungary, Valencia, Monaco, Singapore etc.) do inhibit passing. For the most part GP2 cars have much more overtaking on the exact same tracks. It is the cars which rely too heavily on aero grip relative to mechanical grip.

Question:
Does Moto-GP have better racing?
Does Formula Ford have better racing?
Does DTM have better racing?
Does Karting have better racing?
Does LMP1&2 have better racing?
Does the BTCC have better racing?
Does GP2 have better racing?

Is F1 so snooty that it doesn't think it has a problem?

[joe123]

just to set something straight about the track design v track build
Kellogg Brown & Root was responsible for the track design and installation of all the infrastructure. As for the bumps the track surface was laid by the LTA (singapore government body responsible for the roads) and I have heard that there were concerns made about the condition of the track surface well in advance of the race but they wouldn't do anything about it. this is very typical of Singapore government bodies as it is all about saving face not safety.

in saying all of that and reading everyones comments about how the track would be boring and the design was crap blah blah blah and the fact that you were commenting on the race online live clearly illustrates that even if you know most of the rules and technical information you don't know anything about track design or driving cars fast and how loss of control is calculated. well for all predictions of a boring race with no overtaking there was action galore with overtaking and watch out for more overtaking in 2009 if they resurface the road and do it right this time.

[Miguel]

On one hand...

Well for all predictions of a boring race with no overtaking there was action galore with overtaking and watch out for more overtaking in 2009 if they resurface the road and do it right this time.

On the other...

Why is everyone saying that this GP was fantastic? It was horrible beyond words. A train of cars 5sec a lap faster than Trulli and yet they cant overtake. Horrifying!

I'm sorry, but I'm on Harrelson's side this time. Kubica would have been stuck behind Fisichella in no other track, with the exception of Monaco. The same applies to the three light cars behind Trulli. Nico, who was on fire yesterday, needed 6 laps to overtake a 3s/lap slower car. It was maybe a tad too much, since Kazuki and Fernando needed much less time, but even then... 3s/22turns= 0.14s per turn! I even fear that reducing the bumpiness of the circuit will only decrease the possibilities of a safety car.

Although I don't have experience watching most of the series he quoted, my answers to some gcdugas' questions:

• Does Moto-GP have better racing? I'll give you this one. Here, the follower has an advantage. Unfortunately, I failed to get excited on the start, and even on the first laps. I must admit, however, that my inner guts don't get too excited with motorbikes.
• Does LMP1&2 have better racing? No. Le Mans was great this year, but make no mistake. Endurance races are decided by clean air pace plus reliability, not overtakings.
• Does GP2 have better racing? Yes and no. Some stuff is plainly brilliant, which is why I watch it, but other is just clumsy racing. When you watch close knife fights in F1 you realise these guys *are* good.

I don't know about the other series. I don't know what to expect from karting, although I wouldn't be surprised to see top quality stuff there. On the other hand, I'll suppose that the BTCC and the DTM aren't much different from the WTCC, where races are usually pretty interesting, even though they rely a tad too much on bodywork . Following with prejudices, I'll finally assume that FF is also a slower form of GP2.

Please flame me and correct me where applicable.

[Belatti]

All you people that complain that F1 is boring, that there is no passing, just don´t watch it. Or stop complaining!

You seem to be the type of guys that would enjoy a LMP passing a GT2 car. You also are blind enough to see what Nico did to Jarno or what Lewis did to David. That for me is good enough for a race. The whole race was fine, I enjoyed the most of it and there is nothing wrong to say.

F1 should not be "only" about overtaking. It should be a balance between fast pace driving, team strategy, engineering and of course, overtaking.
This season there where only 3 boring races: Barcelona, Valencia and Hungaroring.

Hurray to singapore!

[tomislavp4]

I totally agree with Belatti =D>

The race wasn´t one of the best we´ve seen but it was good, 10 times better than valencia I would say Couple of good overtakings, few accidents (I know it´s not good but it´s better than nothing)and an unexpected winner, enough for me

They should however change the SC rules immediately

[Miguel]

They should however change the SC rules immediately

It's true! I almost forgot about it. There were so many things to complain about (to keep Ciro and Belatti happy ), I forgot about the most important thing:
Change the SC rules before it messes another Championship

[gcdugas]

[quote="Belatti"]All you people that complain that F1 is boring, that there is no passing, just don´t watch it. Or stop complaining! /quote]


I guess that it is forbidden to speak honestly about the true state of affairs in F1. Moreover one should not dare to openly discuss corrective alternatives or openly brainstorm/deliberate about what can be done to improve a sport we love dearly. That we love F1 dearly enough to face her blemishes makes seeking a remedy the natural response. If we didn't love F1 we would be silent. If we didn't love F1 we would leave and watch something else.

"Love it or leave it" are the choices given by a battering abusive husband. "What can be done to help" is the loving response of a caring spouse.