Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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n smikle wrote:More force means more acceleration. Faster shifts.
The paddle is just a switch though. It doesn't "transmit" the force; so it doesn't matter how "hard" you pull on the paddle, it will basically activate the gearshift at the point when he switch is closed; no? At least that's my understanding of it.
n smikle wrote:Now for adapting to the tyres. I think he can
Personally I don't think he can't (translation: I think he can) but the problem isn't that he can't. It's that he just... doesn't. He just (usually) wants to be on the limit every lap. Don't say I blame him; I would too. But you can't disagree that if your job description changes you have to adapt to it. Since 2011 "tyre management" was appended onto it.
n smikle wrote:I mean, he did well in China and Germany two races were tyre management was most important for the win
I beg to differ on this one. China was won on tyre strategy, yes, but rather it was a balls-to-the-wall strategy (3-stop). Vettel was the one on the tyre management strategy; (2-stop) and it didn't work out for him.
As for Germany; the cold conditions meant that you shouldn't manage tyres; but hammer them to get good heat. True enough Hamilton's options were the first to go away in that penultimate stint; and he was the one who could get the primes hot fast enough; rather than "saving" tyres per se.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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His finger depresses the paddle to the contact point faster - so it hits harder on arrival. Simple mechanics. Type faster on your keyboard and you'll hear it getting louder. Your fingers arrive at the keys at a higher velocity.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
n smikle wrote:I mean, he did well in China and Germany two races were tyre management was most important for the win
I beg to differ on this one. China was won on tyre strategy, yes, but rather it was a balls-to-the-wall strategy (3-stop). Vettel was the one on the tyre management strategy; (2-stop) and it didn't work out for him.
As for Germany; the cold conditions meant that you shouldn't manage tyres; but hammer them to get good heat. True enough Hamilton's options were the first to go away in that penultimate stint; and he was the one who could get the primes hot fast enough; rather than "saving" tyres per se.
OK Evidence: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/04/17/2 ... -analysis/

China pit stop summary:

Vet-14
JB - lap 14
Ham - lap 15 (this is after JB's screw up in the RB pits, Ham had to wait after JB pits).
Alonso - 16


JB-24
Ham-25
.
.
Vet- 31
Alonso - 32
.
.
.
JB-37
ham-38
.
.
Button, who went over the metaphorical tyre cliff was overtaken by Hamilton on lap 35 just before his pitstop. Now Hamilton didn't have his new tyres until the last stint. So yeah, it is not that "he just doesn't" do it, he just chooses to take them to the limit at times.
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Lycoming
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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n smikle wrote:His finger depresses the paddle to the contact point faster - so it hits harder on arrival. Simple mechanics. Type faster on your keyboard and you'll hear it getting louder. Your fingers arrive at the keys at a higher velocity.
The difference is probably completely pointless. you want to shift at the right time; not too early, not too soon. having a consistent delay is more important than hitting the paddle harder, if that even makes a difference.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Lycoming wrote:
n smikle wrote:His finger depresses the paddle to the contact point faster - so it hits harder on arrival. Simple mechanics. Type faster on your keyboard and you'll hear it getting louder. Your fingers arrive at the keys at a higher velocity.
The difference is probably completely pointless. you want to shift at the right time; not too early, not too soon. having a consistent delay is more important than hitting the paddle harder, if that even makes a difference.
Yes that's what I'm saying - the velocity doesn't matter; what matters is just the exact moment the switch is activated.
n smikle wrote:Button, who went over the metaphorical tyre cliff was overtaken by Hamilton on lap 35 just before his pitstop.
I think you'll find that that wasn't a tyre conservation issue but Button was just plain slow compared to Hamilton. I'm not disagreeing with you re: Hamilton vs tyres smikle; but I'm saying this example you chose of the Shanghai race is not a good one.
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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There is also the setup of the car. A very key factor.

Good news for people who are worried about lewis and tyres here's a quote.
"The set-up that I have will definitely be easier on the tyres," Hamilton added. "The one I went to in Japan wasn't good for consecutive laps.
"I've come in a different direction which hopefully will be more beneficial in the race."
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raymondu999
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smikle; I'm not disagreeing with you at ALL. I'm just saying you chose a bad example with the Shanghai race. That's all.
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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why?
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Well for one thing Hamilton's tyres fell off the cliff the earliest in the first stint; and Vettel just blew past him. Before the leading 3 made their first pitstops.
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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There's a fantastic piece by Mark Hughes on the driving of MW, SV, LH, JB, and FA (the 5 who have won all the races in the last 2 years). Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula ... 926791.stm
Mark Hughes wrote:Beyond the narrative of the championship and the technical contest between the teams, 2011 has been a fascinatingly revealing case study into the traits, strengths and weaknesses of Formula 1's top drivers.

Taking a dispassionate look at the performances in those 19 races, treating it as additional data in the bank, has enabled a lot of fine-tuning of what we know about Fernando Alonso, Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber.

New facets of their abilities have become apparent and partly this has been down to the introduction of the Pirelli as a control tyre in place of the Bridgestone.

It behaves in a very different way and has required a lot of adaptation from teams and, especially, drivers. This change in the demands and the differing ways it has impacted on the top drivers has been very informative.

The rear Pirelli tyre is less tolerant of slip angle (being slid rather than merely cornered) than the Bridgestone.

It has a very stiff construction - because being new to F1, Pirelli wanted to ensure a safe tyre above all else - and that means it does not like being asked to transfer lateral and longitudinal load at the same time, ie braking or accelerating while also cornering. So there is less 'give' in the construction to bridge the gap between the two types of forces.

The combination of stiff construction with soft compounds (introduced to spice up the racing) means that the tyre's performance drops off very quickly, as without much help from any flexing of the tyre's structure, the compound gets abused and overheats.

It is useful to view the continued development of Vettel within this context.

He has a very powerful array of assets but perhaps the most potent of all is his raw intelligence; a hungry mind and a sharp one.

Even in conversation he makes all sorts of cross-connections while maintaining a narrative, and in Brazil on Sunday he compared his drive while struggling with a gearbox problem with Ayrton Senna's similar circumstances at the same venue in 1991.

Vettel's hungry mind had absorbed the sport's history in detail and even in the midst of coping with a problem during the race, he had the spare capacity to start quoting it.

Earlier this year team boss Peter Sauber was reflecting on how he and BMW had relinquished Vettel back to Red Bull too easily when he was their reserve driver in 2007.

"I hadn't realised how much more there was to come from him," Sauber sighed reflectively. "The most amazing thing about him is his intelligence."

Alonso was another intelligent driver, someone ventured. "Yes, true. But Seb is much more so."

Vettel's intelligence seems to be of a broader spectrum than that of any of his peers, a sign usually that it's more adaptable - and it's adaptation that has marked out his performances this year.

The Pirelli delivers its single 'golden-lap' grip in a very narrow peak, it is prone to overheat its surface in long corners and in a race its performance degrades faster the harder a driver uses it.

Combine that with the traits described earlier - and those of the Red Bull RB7, a car with devastating performance but not very raceable on account of lack of straight-line speed and a weak Kers power-boost system. That is one very tricky package to maximise.

It must be qualified on pole, not lose the start and be out of range of a car that could use its DRS overtaking device by the end of the second lap.

Thereafter you must use its performance sparingly, otherwise your tyres degrade faster than those of the slower cars and you must have enough life left in the tyres at the end of the stints to be able to turn it on for a very fast in-lap to respond to the guy that's stopped before you and has got onto fresh tyres.

That is a combination that needs a lot of mental dexterity in addition to sheer skill.

Vettel's rears consistently run cooler than team-mate Webber's - Vettel gets a lot of the direction change done in the first part of the corner, between turn-in and apex.

The in-car footage of his Valencia pole lap was a beautiful study in how he uses oversteer - a loose rear end - in the first part of the turn to hurry the direction change so that the car is pointing straight at the apex with steering lock no longer needed, enabling him to then be very early on the throttle.

Managing that initial instability requires a great cocktail of balance and confidence and he does it beautifully. It also requires the ability to make the Pirelli do what it doesn't like doing - ie handle lateral and longitudinal grip at the same time.

A Bridgestone or Michelin in the previous decade used to accommodate that technique with ease, and therefore all the drivers were doing it. Doing it with the Pirelli requires more skill - and that's given guys like Vettel an edge.

That in itself is nothing to do with intelligence, merely feel - and it is feel that separates out who is quick and who is not.

The qualifying demands of the Pirelli - especially on tracks with largely slow-to-medium-speed corners, where downforce is less dominant - favour drivers that are at ease with using initial oversteer to hurry direction change.

Vettel is great at this, Hamilton arguably even better. Button doesn't like it so much. Alonso can do it, but the dominant understeering trait of the Ferrari means he doesn't.

But in the race the demands are different. Then it is about the trading of the degrading Pirellis for pace, of striking the most efficient balance between the two, of measuring out where and when to use up a very limited resource.

That is about a combination of feel and broad-bandwidth intelligence.

In this Vettel is superb, as is Button, as is Alonso. Hamilton and Webber have both struggled to do that this year, probably for different reasons.

Webber's a bright guy but says he is just not feeling these tyres well and the softer the compound the worse it is.

Hamilton's blessed with an ability to make a car do pretty much anything he wants, but does not seem to have fully taken on board the revised requirements of 2011.

So in the two very diverse demands, race to qualifying, of 2011, Vettel was perfectly equipped. Alonso, too, but an understeering car like the Ferrari does not allow him to maximise qualifying (for the Pirelli-related reasons above).

Button, the guy with probably the most finely-honed exquisite feel of all - enabling those sensational wet-weather drives - but who is over-sensitive to corner-entry instability, is not ideally placed to maximise the Pirellis over one lap.

Hamilton can do so but is then not efficiently using them in the race (see, most obviously, Hungary).

Webber has been hit doubly, his fantastic high-speed-corner commitment punished by excess Pirelli temperature, his difficulty feeling the tyre not allowing him the shallow oversteer on entry to slow turns that buys Vettel so much lap time.

This is just the smallest of windows into the kaleidoscope of driver performance - we have not even begun to get into the different technique over kerbs enabled this year by exhaust-blown diffusers. That will have to be left for another day.
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bizadfar
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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speedsense wrote:
bizadfar wrote:
mariano wrote:neither Barrichello nor Schumacher and Raikkonen block their tyres
Just because they don't lock up doesn't mean they're only braking in a straight line. :lol:

Seriously, braking straight then letting it roll to the apex then accelerating out is an amateur technique and you'd be at the back of the grid... (or not driving at a all...)

I said take a trip to youtube...
It also depends on the TYRES. If you notice a big buzz during 2007 was the former michelin teams/drivers saying how easy it is to lock up the unloaded bridgestone control tyre. TYRES play a huge role in characteristics of drivers and the adaption of their technique.
Sorry but braking in a straight line, is another technique not an amateur one. There are places where trail braking won't work such as a true street course in an open wheel car, due to a lack of grip of the track. In high powered sedans such as a race winning, well setup Trans Car, trailing the braking can cause understeer on entry where rolling in doesn't cause the same understeer.
Getting to the correct entry speed, is the only reason braking occurs. At the limit of adhesion that is a certain speed number, trail braking does not increase that number over rolling in. So you still have to slow the car to the entry speed.
With either technique, the braking point is very close and not increased in trailing brake by the distance to the apex.
Though the "advantage" of trailing brake is how the car reacts at turn in such that the car is less likely to incurr understeer on entry with a trail brake over a rolling entry that is causing understeer. IMHO
Really good setup then! #-o

You brake later, you maintain acceleration and peak velocity for longer. It's a no brainer to laptime. People always think about getting out of corners with power. But everyone seems to think braking is arbitrary. Huge amounts of precious time to be gained here.
godlameroso wrote:I think he meant to say that depending on the setup a car will understeer under braking whereas it won't if you merely lift off. Loading the fronts usually helps turn in, but like we discussed already, this effect only happens up to a point. Overloading the fronts does nothing to improve grip, and takes it away at the rear. Take turn one and two in Suzuka, in a F1 car, just the drag caused by lifting is enough to slow the car enough, you need only barely brake for the second turn, but here lies the trick to going fast through here. If you brake just enough(that is just barely enough to put some weight on the fronts, the car will tuck in to the apex of turn two and you can rocket out of there. In a car with less downforce, like the Super GT's, the drivers again barely brake into turn one just to make the car tuck into the apex, then the braking phase begins, but again just enough to slow the car down for turn two. If you started the full braking phase through the apex of the first turn you would most likely end up in the wall picking gravel out of your helmet.
With some of the older cars with not so great downforce levels we see today, the class of the field drivers would left foot brake in that section of Suzuka. If you get a chance to see a throttle/brake trace, it's good stuff.
raymondu999 wrote:Ricciardo considers his own driving as having quite a bit of "finesse" and quite smooth, but he prefers a bit of oversteer than understeer. Would you not normally prefer rear-end stability with a smoother style? Kind of Jenson-style. (not to be confused with understeer)
A lot of driver coaches will tell you as you go up the ranks of karting, Formula (insert brand here) and so on to setup the car for braking stability (so, understeer/neutral on the way in) and catachable oversteer on the way out.

scarlet
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:There's a fantastic piece by Mark Hughes on the driving of MW, SV, LH, JB, and FA (the 5 who have won all the races in the last 2 years). Here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula ... 926791.stm
Mark Hughes wrote:...
Great read, explains a lot about the relative pace between the drivers (I guess Massa has a similar style to Webber?). Plus you can conclude that a big challenge for designing next years cars is optimising the cars characteristics on the tyres, achieving turn-in oversteer on low fuel, and neutral handling on high.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Mark Hughes has another fantastic piece: http://www.racer.com/racer-special-f1s- ... le/219407/
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Raiden
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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ringo wrote:
godlameroso wrote:Piquet wasn't that good of a driver if you ask me.

Prost was very similar to Button, with a kind of Kubica car control

Senna was very much like a mix of Hamilton Vettel and Alonso all rolled into one.
I find it hard to believe a 3 time world champion was not that good of a driver.
I find it interesting how much people demonize piquet or ignore his achievements.
The man is one of The Greats, hate him or love him.

Senna to me is more like Vettel, just more, and a splash of Hamilton.
Hamilton is himself, i can't really match his overtaking ability with any other driver, even Senna.


I agree. Piquet won 3 world championships and could have had a 4th. Mansell was certainly faster in 1987 but I'm not sure he was in 1986.

Raiden
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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On a related note, browsing the 1987 f1 season on wikipedia, De Cesaris only finished one race in the whole season. In that race, he finished on the podium! F1 is definitely better nowadays in terms of fewer DNFs. Although a few more now and again would spice it up a bit.