Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:06
matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:03

Porpoising:
1) Is not that related to the surface the car run on. It's 90% an aerodynamic issue
2) Is caused by the flow choking at the back of the car, t-tray has minimum effect

Also damping the porpoising in a generic sense is not the solution. It is an instability, not just a bump on the road: damping will not fix the issue, it will at best limit it, but compromising the optimal damping required by the mechanics of the car.
The issue is the flow through the throat of the underfloor which is near the middle of the wheelbase, not at the rear end of the car.
flow at the rear will effect flow at the throat.
A f1 car is not made up of isolated components. there is plenty interaction.
The flow isn't "choking" at the rear. The "choking" occurs in the throat.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:03
F1Krof wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 17:04
Still bouncing, even though the surface is much smoother. They still don't have an answer. I wonder if they missed the damper trick ala Ferrari and HAAS on the t-tray
Porpoising:
1) Is not that related to the surface the car run on. It's 90% an aerodynamic issue
2) Is caused by the flow choking at the back of the car, t-tray has minimum effect

Also damping the porpoising in a generic sense is not the solution. It is an instability, not just a bump on the road: damping will not fix the issue, it will at best limit it, but compromising the optimal damping required by the mechanics of the car.
Surely the porpoising is to do with the vortices in the tunnels bursting when the floor gets too close to the ground

matteosc
matteosc
30
Joined: 11 Sep 2012, 17:07

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:37
NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:06

The issue is the flow through the throat of the underfloor which is near the middle of the wheelbase, not at the rear end of the car.
flow at the rear will effect flow at the throat.
A f1 car is not made up of isolated components. there is plenty interaction.
The flow isn't "choking" at the rear. The "choking" occurs in the throat.
Agree, but it is a consequence of the car (particularly the rear) getting lower.

User avatar
NicoS
-2
Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 17:21

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:37
NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:10
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:06

The issue is the flow through the throat of the underfloor which is near the middle of the wheelbase, not at the rear end of the car.
flow at the rear will effect flow at the throat.
A f1 car is not made up of isolated components. there is plenty interaction.
The flow isn't "choking" at the rear. The "choking" occurs in the throat.
Flow at the rear will effect flow at the front. it's not to isolated systems.
like a hose, you block the outlet, you choke the inlet, simple. :(

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:38
matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:03
F1Krof wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 17:04
Still bouncing, even though the surface is much smoother. They still don't have an answer. I wonder if they missed the damper trick ala Ferrari and HAAS on the t-tray
Porpoising:
1) Is not that related to the surface the car run on. It's 90% an aerodynamic issue
2) Is caused by the flow choking at the back of the car, t-tray has minimum effect

Also damping the porpoising in a generic sense is not the solution. It is an instability, not just a bump on the road: damping will not fix the issue, it will at best limit it, but compromising the optimal damping required by the mechanics of the car.
Surely the porpoising is to do with the vortices in the tunnels bursting when the floor gets too close to the ground
Watching the Redbull today, it was slightly porpoising on almost all the straights. I think the forces above the car also contribute to the bouncing. I'm thinking the porpoising gets amplified because of the natural springiness of the suspension.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:27
Mchamilton wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:38
matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:03

Porpoising:
1) Is not that related to the surface the car run on. It's 90% an aerodynamic issue
2) Is caused by the flow choking at the back of the car, t-tray has minimum effect

Also damping the porpoising in a generic sense is not the solution. It is an instability, not just a bump on the road: damping will not fix the issue, it will at best limit it, but compromising the optimal damping required by the mechanics of the car.
Surely the porpoising is to do with the vortices in the tunnels bursting when the floor gets too close to the ground
Watching the Redbull today, it was slightly porpoising on almost all the straights. I think the forces above the car also contribute to the bouncing. I'm thinking the porpoising gets amplified because of the natural springiness of the suspension.
Oh for sure the forces above the car cobtirbute to car lowering to the point where the underfloor flow breaks down.
They cut the bottom of the inner moat strake didnt they, can only assume that was an attempt to alter position/strength of the vortex that would be rolled up on the inboard side of it.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Yeah, so I am suggesting the proposing can be reduced if the teams design the upper part of the car to be a bit more on on the stable side.. as in less aggressive cambers on the wings so that slight displacements don't change the lift/drag too much.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 19:20
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:37
NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:10


flow at the rear will effect flow at the throat.
A f1 car is not made up of isolated components. there is plenty interaction.
The flow isn't "choking" at the rear. The "choking" occurs in the throat.
Flow at the rear will effect flow at the front. it's not to isolated systems.
like a hose, you block the outlet, you choke the inlet, simple. :(
And how is the rear of the car choking the throat on the Mercedes?
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

matteosc
matteosc
30
Joined: 11 Sep 2012, 17:07

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:38
Yeah, so I am suggesting the proposing can be reduced if the teams design the upper part of the car to be a bit more on on the stable side.. as in less aggressive cambers on the wings so that slight displacements don't change the lift/drag too much.
The porpoising is caused by alternate loss and gain of downforce occurring when the floor gets too close to the ground and when it gets back up respectively. The load generated by the upper part of the car does not suffer from this effect. The reason why we see this effect this year is that a way larger portion of the downforce comes from the floor.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:38
Yeah, so I am suggesting the proposing can be reduced if the teams design the upper part of the car to be a bit more on on the stable side.. as in less aggressive cambers on the wings so that slight displacements don't change the lift/drag too much.
This is incredibly speculative.
A lion must kill its prey.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:38
Yeah, so I am suggesting the proposing can be reduced if the teams design the upper part of the car to be a bit more on on the stable side.. as in less aggressive cambers on the wings so that slight displacements don't change the lift/drag too much.
The porpoising is caused by alternate loss and gain of downforce occurring when the floor gets too close to the ground and when it gets back up respectively. The load generated by the upper part of the car does not suffer from this effect. The reason why we see this effect this year is that a way larger portion of the downforce comes from the floor.
It's coming from the suspension too. Undamped heave mode.
A lion must kill its prey.

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Haven’t you guys fixed it already? Jeez!

User avatar
NicoS
-2
Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 17:21

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:43
NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 19:20
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 18:37

The flow isn't "choking" at the rear. The "choking" occurs in the throat.
Flow at the rear will effect flow at the front. it's not to isolated systems.
like a hose, you block the outlet, you choke the inlet, simple. :(
And how is the rear of the car choking the throat on the Mercedes?
sidepods optimised for downwash, not directing enough flow over diffuser, lack of low pressure over diffuser, resulting in less effective evacuation of air from under car, thus chocking channels.

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:52
matteosc wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:38
Yeah, so I am suggesting the proposing can be reduced if the teams design the upper part of the car to be a bit more on on the stable side.. as in less aggressive cambers on the wings so that slight displacements don't change the lift/drag too much.
The porpoising is caused by alternate loss and gain of downforce occurring when the floor gets too close to the ground and when it gets back up respectively. The load generated by the upper part of the car does not suffer from this effect. The reason why we see this effect this year is that a way larger portion of the downforce comes from the floor.
It's coming from the suspension too. Undamped heave mode.
How is it 'coming from' the suspension? The suspension is moving as a consequence of the changing load under the car.
Its that severe change in the load that needs to be better controlled.

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: Mercedes W13

Post

NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 21:04
Just_a_fan wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 20:43
NicoS wrote:
25 Mar 2022, 19:20


Flow at the rear will effect flow at the front. it's not to isolated systems.
like a hose, you block the outlet, you choke the inlet, simple. :(
And how is the rear of the car choking the throat on the Mercedes?
sidepods optimised for downwash, not directing enough flow over diffuser, lack of low pressure over diffuser, resulting in less effective evacuation of air from under car, thus chocking channels.
Not directing enough flow over the diffuser? Have you seen the sheer amount of exposed floor there is on this car?