Mercedes GP MGP W01

[xpensive]

Indeed timbo, mea culpa, he engineered the 1987-88 Ferrari turbos as well, while the origin of the raised nose was Newey's March.

Not too successful Ferraris)
640 was good, however.
And 412 T1 and T2 were beauties! 412T2 was a great chassis, on par with Williams, but suffered from suboptimal V12 and unreliability.

I think Barnard's problem was that he wasn't keen on creating and organizing a proper design team as well as developing his cars.

That's why his tally is not so impressive as Brawn/Byrne's or Newey's.

Barnard's undoing was the 1996 Ferrari, a goulish contraption that one, while he insisted on not working at Maranello.

[mx_tifoso]

I was letting the thread go off topic for a bit, since my faith was [falsely] placed on you guys stopping the F1 engineer talk, but it seems that I was wrong.

So asking nicely, could you guys please get back to the correct topic?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

To raise, or not raise....its still the question!

I was letting the thread go off topic for a bit, since my faith was [falsely] placed on you guys stopping the F1 engineer talk, but it seems that I was wrong.

So asking nicely, could you guys please get back to the correct topic?

My response was in reference to the nose of F1 cars....

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raising this topic is my fault...
Its simply too hair raising to think of it. Although raising the subject sooner rather than later is inevitable..

[marcush.]

mercedes was the ones that burned their back ,not Ferrari ..this weekend ..and that was negating some of the performance i read somewhere...

But still i think the car itself is not at fault,they just seem to have a lack of understanding how to make the tyres work under ALL circumstances.

They are not alone in this ...see Sauber ...seem to have the same fundamental problem but even worse.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

I have posted before, and it seems Brawn thinks Bridgestone didnt go far enough in tyre wall strength. He was grumbling about this in february, and it basically means this car isnt 100% on the current tyre format.
Which is actually quite amazing as its not only kills the cars pace, but also makes tyre predictions and reading near impossible.

Ferrari also mentioned somthing on this but appear not to have suffered as much.

[marcush.]

Marcush

I have posted before, and it seems Brawn thinks Bridgestone didnt go far enough in tyre wall strength. He was grumbling about this in february, and it basically means this car isnt 100% on the current tyre format.
Which is actually quite amazing as its not only kills the cars pace, but also makes tyre predictions and reading near impossible.

Ferrari also mentioned somthing on this but appear not to have suffered as much.

I hear you and I think you are right in a ways.But where is the reason for not being able to solve this problem? Nose height or chassis crosssection cannot be a reason for the tyres not working.
mind you Sauber and Ferrari have very high noses and LOOOONG cars ....and Renault have low nose and the shortest(car) of all...and it seems they cope quite well.

and it seems particularly the soft tyre they are unable to work correctly ,whereas Ferrari has trouble with the harder compounds?

for sure Heidfeld has a lot to say about the tyre issues they had at sauber in 2009 ,2008 for him ... I´m sure there is a lot to be discussed and actions to be taken ..with new approaches as obviously what they are doing currently does NOT help.
so no updates necessary as long as they are unable to let the tyres come alive.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

I have posted before, and it seems Brawn thinks Bridgestone didnt go far enough in tyre wall strength. He was grumbling about this in february, and it basically means this car isnt 100% on the current tyre format.
Which is actually quite amazing as its not only kills the cars pace, but also makes tyre predictions and reading near impossible.

Ferrari also mentioned somthing on this but appear not to have suffered as much.

I hear you and I think you are right in a ways.But where is the reason for not being able to solve this problem? Nose height or chassis crosssection cannot be a reason for the tyres not working.
mind you Sauber and Ferrari have very high noses and LOOOONG cars ....and Renault have low nose and the shortest(car) of all...and it seems they cope quite well.

and it seems particularly the soft tyre they are unable to work correctly ,whereas Ferrari has trouble with the harder compounds?

for sure Heidfeld has a lot to say about the tyre issues they had at sauber in 2009 ,2008 for him ... I´m sure there is a lot to be discussed and actions to be taken ..with new approaches as obviously what they are doing currently does NOT help.
so no updates necessary as long as they are unable to let the tyres come alive.

The tyres are certainly working, just not as well as their competitors.
And this is why the dimensions of the car and weight distribution make such a big difference. If Mercedes wasnt running around trying to fix this problem, It would have a very fast car on its hands.

I would liken this to a block of flats that are on fire, once you have extinguished one flat, another one in the block rears its head and you have to extinguish that and so on and so forth.
Had Mercedes got tyre specs spot on this car would easily be top 4 possibly higher.
But as more updates are added, the same problem keeps appearing...TYRES

[marcush.]

I have no clou about the tyres and my car is not quick enough from day one....Of course first thing is start a development programme.

they instantly blamed the car layout for the shortcoming and lost an awful lot of time waiting for the update.
But it did not really help
Now they even state the updates are worth this and that but it does not show(!) because of the tyres not working.
it seems so basic but sure this was their thinking they simply worked all these months on the WRONG item.this is holding them back .If you work on something that is not holding you back ..you simply will not improve in lap time .the car feels better and has more potential.. BUT the times do not come..hello ...ringing bells?
And they are even cheating themselves stating they have tyre issues since Canada...
I`d say they realised only after Canada where their problem is really..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well they realised the problem was even bigger than they thought.
You cannot compensate for a mistake of this magnitude.

[toshinden]

any one know how big their budget this year?
Mercedes has to bring their man power to this team if they want to succeed their campaign ... gosh

[marcush.]

any one know how big their budget this year?
Mercedes has to bring their man power to this team if they want to succeed their campaign ... gosh

what budget could help them...? if you try to shortcut by bringing in outside recources be sure it takes double time to get the job done...

for sure they have to find ways to gain expertise about how to make tyres work.
Bridggestone will lay off a lot of people or at least some will be hot to remain in F1... but that may not help instantly..
I´m almost sure the top teams know something about the tyres Mercedes and Sauber have not found out yet.....when do the teams get their tyre allocation for the weekend ...I´d think right at the beginning ...they sort out the best combinations and work down from there ,returning the ones they don´t want to use.. but what can be done friday till saturday to the tyres itself ,apart from cooking them at elevated times in the oven? I did some cryogenic conditioning with parts in the past ...could this help the tyres as well?
Obviously it has nothing to do with track surface or track temperatures ...or they managed to do everything wrong .....but the paddock is small how much can you hide or ignore?

[toshinden]

what budget could help them...? if you try to shortcut by bringing in outside recources be sure it takes double time to get the job done...

for sure they have to find ways to gain expertise about how to make tyres work.
Bridggestone will lay off a lot of people or at least some will be hot to remain in F1... but that may not help instantly..
I´m almost sure the top teams know something about the tyres Mercedes and Sauber have not found out yet.....when do the teams get their tyre allocation for the weekend ...I´d think right at the beginning ...they sort out the best combinations and work down from there ,returning the ones they don´t want to use.. but what can be done friday till saturday to the tyres itself ,apart from cooking them at elevated times in the oven? I did some cryogenic conditioning with parts in the past ...could this help the tyres as well?
Obviously it has nothing to do with track surface or track temperatures ...or they managed to do everything wrong .....but the paddock is small how much can you hide or ignore?

well, if they have the budget. surely they can call a good expertise from the preseason test right?

what i meant by bringing Merc man power is for the long term plan. this season is done for.

I'm still not quite understand with these tyres problem issues. they have this issues from last season but only in cold temp situation, but now they have it in every situation
it slip through my mind, can the BGP001 be use in race this season?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What of tyre modeling software?

I have heard it being bandied about and it seems like common sense to have somthing like this. Problem would be its like CFD...its the numbers you put in that matter.
And xpensive, Im still thinking....

[marcush.]

I´m reasonably sure in Mercedes is noone who could know how to solve this.And i mean has the solution in hand.

Brawn is the guy with the logical systematic approch ,the proceedures guy anyways...
What is the missing link there? they have not made an honest analysis on their issue from day one ,otherwise for sure they would not have come up with announcements had they been aware that all their work would not solve the issue they really face.