2025 McLaren F1 Team

[mwillems]

F1 teams don't stand still so you can't use the future to rewrite the past. Red Bull may get closer to Mclaren for any number of logical reasons like upgrades. That doesn't mean they were close in the past. In Jeddah, they introduced some upgrades and even Piastri admitted that Red Bull's pace was unexpected and too close for comfort. That doesn't mean they were close all along as Norris tries to portray. It's a bit worrying that someone would need to explain this to Norris...

Also, in case I have ever stated that Mclaren are dominant, I have never claimed that they will continue to be dominant. I cannot see the future.

The present explains it well enough, my point is that as time goes on you can't ignore reality.

The present only explains a moment in time. What you are trying to imply is that Red Bulls increasing competitiveness due to upgrades means that we’re were somehow ignoring that they were competitive all along. That’s not how it works. I wouldn’t argue that Mclaren was competitive before Miami simply because they were competitive in nearly every race after Miami.

Red Bull were competitive from the start. I edited my post just to make it read better.

Mclaren were competitive before Miami at 2 of the 5 races, China (2nd) and Australia (6s behind the winner).

Red Bull had some tracks that didn't suit, but it always had pace, this has been really clear.

[AR3-GP]

As I said earlier, when the narrative evaporates the performance of the other cars, particularly the RB, will become clear.

F1 teams don't stand still so you can't use the future to rewrite the past. Red Bull may get closer to Mclaren for any number of logical reasons like upgrades. That doesn't mean they were close in the past. In Jeddah, they introduced some upgrades and even Piastri admitted that Red Bull's pace was unexpected and too close for comfort. That doesn't mean they were close all along as Norris tries to portray. It's a bit worrying that someone would need to explain this to Norris...

Also, in case I have ever stated that Mclaren are dominant, I have never claimed that they will continue to be dominant. I cannot see the future.

The present explains it well enough, my point is that as time goes on you can't ignore reality. The Red Bull was fast from the start, it was clear that it had some flaws but that it was going to be a challenger. Bahrain doesn't make it a bad car. It was clear that others could be very close to Mclaren, including Merc on occassion, though their peak pace is showing less often.

I'm not saying you will see the future, just that you have a skewed look at the past, including focussing only on one drivers mistakes and ignoring that they all do it and ignoring the actual pace of other cars

5 Races in we have been outright fastest in China and Bahrain, everywhere else we have had to fight for it. So I would agree that the car can be dominant in the right conditions. But this isn't that common.

You had to “fight for it” in Australia? They were on pole by 4 tenths…Please be serious

This is why these discussions don’t go anywhere. Australia was only close for 10 or so laps while Verstappen drove like a mad man until the inters cried no more. Then it only closed again after Norris damaged his floor and lost a large amount of downforce before the safety car.

Red Bull wasn’t “fast” from the start. They have been missing 2-3 tenths for all races except Jeddah and even more in Bahrain. This kind of deficit was more than enough for Mclaren to sweep every race weekend but they couldn’t because Norris kept messing up qualifying.

[mwillems]

F1 teams don't stand still so you can't use the future to rewrite the past. Red Bull may get closer to Mclaren for any number of logical reasons like upgrades. That doesn't mean they were close in the past. In Jeddah, they introduced some upgrades and even Piastri admitted that Red Bull's pace was unexpected and too close for comfort. That doesn't mean they were close all along as Norris tries to portray. It's a bit worrying that someone would need to explain this to Norris...

Also, in case I have ever stated that Mclaren are dominant, I have never claimed that they will continue to be dominant. I cannot see the future.

The present explains it well enough, my point is that as time goes on you can't ignore reality. The Red Bull was fast from the start, it was clear that it had some flaws but that it was going to be a challenger. Bahrain doesn't make it a bad car. It was clear that others could be very close to Mclaren, including Merc on occassion, though their peak pace is showing less often.

I'm not saying you will see the future, just that you have a skewed look at the past, including focussing only on one drivers mistakes and ignoring that they all do it and ignoring the actual pace of other cars

5 Races in we have been outright fastest in China and Bahrain, everywhere else we have had to fight for it. So I would agree that the car can be dominant in the right conditions. But this isn't that common.

You had to “fight for it” in Australia? They were on pole by 4 tenths…Please be serious

This is why these discussions don’t go anywhere. Australia was only close for 10 or so laps while Verstappen drove like a mad man until the inters cried no more. Then it only closed again after Norris damaged his floor and lost a large amount of downforce before the safety car.

In the race we had a spell where we dominated and the tyre advantage came through, but we had to fight for it. The car is tricky to handle and you can't ignore that flaw and say it's all the drivers fault that he went off and got damaged. As a result of the car's design, the race was a hard fight to win and we could have easily lost it.

If you want to ignore all the traits and varying ebbs and flows of circuit configs/conditions and just say, it was faster because I can see it can be the fastest on a Saturday, then you'll find the season won't really respect that view and will very much do its own thing.

My point before was that you put all errors on the driver, ignore the fact the the car contributes towards it and focussed only on the erros of one driver, as if he is the only driver to make errors, otherwise we'd be in the lead. Today, max would lead the championship if he didn't screw up the start. Because Lando makes errors, you focussed previously on every one as if other drivers make no mistakes. This is patently false. He just makes more.

[AR3-GP]

In the race we had a spell where we dominated and the tyre advantage came through, but we had to fight for it. The car is tricky to handle and you can't ignore that flaw and say it's all the drivers fault that he went off and got damaged. As a result of the car's design, the race was a hard fight to win and we could have easily lost it.

You had to “fight for it” leading by 15+ seconds before half distance. I’ve heard it all.

Safety cars bringing the pack together can’t be helped, and nor can a damaged floor be ignored no matter whose fault that it was damaged. Mclaren was dominant in Australia. If the drivers make it look hard (as they often do…), that has nothing to do with the reality.

[mwillems]

No. What I said was clear. We deal with the conditions given to us. In conditions that were tricky to handle we had an accident that allowed Max to nearly overtake us. Whilst I expect Lando to do better, I don't think it is purely Lando's fault either that he struggled with some of his Q laps. It is partly the car because it's outright speed comes at a cost which prevents it from being as dominant as it's peak performance suggests.

Slowly, people are starting to see beyond some Bahrain Testing hype and see the reality, including I think, you!

[mwillems]

it seems to me that you've simply made a choice to pin it all poor performance on the driver and say the car is great, which is fine, that's your opinion. it's a fine line but one with huge implications for the outcome of this conversation and as I've stated, I think your biased toward the car, unreasonably so.

[AR3-GP]

No. What I said was clear. We deal with the conditions given to us. In conditions that were tricky to handle we had an accident that allowed Max to nearly overtake us. Whilst I expect Lando to do better, I don't think it is purely Lando's fault either that he struggled with some of his Q laps. It is partly the car because it's outright speed comes at a cost which prevents it from being as dominant as it's peak performance suggests.

Slowly, people are starting to see beyond some Bahrain Testing hype and see the reality, including I think, you!

None of the reasoning about Lando being unable to exploit the Mclaren have anything to do with the car’s potential. That is a driver limitation. Mclaren might choose to blame themselves for designing a car that is incompatible with Norris but if Piastri (or anyone else) can drive it faster, then I don’t see anything wrong. It’s hard to make a fast car at all, let alone one which must also be compromised by the sensitivities of one of the drivers. Most teams would jump at the chance to have the fastest car in the hands of 1 of the drivers in the team, rather than a midfield car that both can drive. Worrying about suiting both drivers is a luxury that F1 teams can’t afford.

[mwillems]

No. What I said was clear. We deal with the conditions given to us. In conditions that were tricky to handle we had an accident that allowed Max to nearly overtake us. Whilst I expect Lando to do better, I don't think it is purely Lando's fault either that he struggled with some of his Q laps. It is partly the car because it's outright speed comes at a cost which prevents it from being as dominant as it's peak performance suggests.

Slowly, people are starting to see beyond some Bahrain Testing hype and see the reality, including I think, you!

None of the reasoning about Lando being unable to exploit the Mclaren have anything to do with the car’s potential. That is a driver limitation. Mclaren might choose to blame themselves for designing a car that is incompatible with Norris but if Piastri (or anyone else) can drive it faster, then I don’t see anything wrong. It’s hard to make a fast car at all, let alone one which must also be compromised by the sensitivities of one of the drivers.

That's where we disagree. I want Lando to be better but through knowing when not to push the car quite so much. Being a little slower not actually faster! His issues come from the fact that he chases every last margin because, and this is where I get into his head, he needs to beat his teammate. The peaks just mask the fact that sometimes that when you chase them it can end up in disaster.

yeah if everything goes your way and this happened every lap of every weekend, then yes, the car would win most, but still be pushed hard on several tracks. But that isn't the way it works.

Oscar either reads the car well and doesn't go over the line or he just doesn't push in the same way and his tenth a lap less speed is actually helpful, I wouldn't say, but both are possible, I suspect the latter.

[AR3-GP]

No. What I said was clear. We deal with the conditions given to us. In conditions that were tricky to handle we had an accident that allowed Max to nearly overtake us. Whilst I expect Lando to do better, I don't think it is purely Lando's fault either that he struggled with some of his Q laps. It is partly the car because it's outright speed comes at a cost which prevents it from being as dominant as it's peak performance suggests.

Slowly, people are starting to see beyond some Bahrain Testing hype and see the reality, including I think, you!

None of the reasoning about Lando being unable to exploit the Mclaren have anything to do with the car’s potential. That is a driver limitation. Mclaren might choose to blame themselves for designing a car that is incompatible with Norris but if Piastri (or anyone else) can drive it faster, then I don’t see anything wrong. It’s hard to make a fast car at all, let alone one which must also be compromised by the sensitivities of one of the drivers.

That's where we disagree. I want Lando to be better but through knowing when not to push the car quite so much. Being a little slower not actually faster! His issues come from the fact that he chases every last margin because, and this is where I get into his head, he needs to beat his teammate. The peaks just mask the fact that sometimes that when you chase them it can end up in disaster.

yeah if everything goes your way and this happened every lap of every weekend, then yes, the car would win most. but that isn't the way it works.

But why would Lando only worry about his teammate? We are now told (by you and Lando) that the Red Bull is also fast and that he expected the Red Bull to challenge. So Lando feels pressure from Oscar, but no pressure from a rival car which he often claims is just as fast? that’s weird.

[mwillems]

None of the reasoning about Lando being unable to exploit the Mclaren have anything to do with the car’s potential. That is a driver limitation. Mclaren might choose to blame themselves for designing a car that is incompatible with Norris but if Piastri (or anyone else) can drive it faster, then I don’t see anything wrong. It’s hard to make a fast car at all, let alone one which must also be compromised by the sensitivities of one of the drivers.

That's where we disagree. I want Lando to be better but through knowing when not to push the car quite so much. Being a little slower not actually faster! His issues come from the fact that he chases every last margin because, and this is where I get into his head, he needs to beat his teammate. The peaks just mask the fact that sometimes that when you chase them it can end up in disaster.

yeah if everything goes your way and this happened every lap of every weekend, then yes, the car would win most. but that isn't the way it works.

But why would Lando only worry about his teammate? We are now told (by you and Lando) that the Red Bull is also fast and that he expected the Red Bull to challenge.

I didn't say he was only worried about him. I said he wants to beat his teammate, if he pulls his punches he's going to struggle to win in his own team, let alone the championship.

Your teammate is the first guy you've got to beat.

[AR3-GP]

That's where we disagree. I want Lando to be better but through knowing when not to push the car quite so much. Being a little slower not actually faster! His issues come from the fact that he chases every last margin because, and this is where I get into his head, he needs to beat his teammate. The peaks just mask the fact that sometimes that when you chase them it can end up in disaster.

yeah if everything goes your way and this happened every lap of every weekend, then yes, the car would win most. but that isn't the way it works.

But why would Lando only worry about his teammate? We are now told (by you and Lando) that the Red Bull is also fast and that he expected the Red Bull to challenge.

I didn't say he was only worried about him. I said he wants to beat his teammate, if he pulls his punches he's going to struggle to win in his own team, let alone the championship.

Your teammate is the first guy you've got to beat.

Your post says he feel pressure specifically because he needs to beat his teammate. But if Red Bull is just as fast, then why doesn’t he also need to beat the Red Bull?

Lando has tried to push a narrative about his “strong teammate” but it doesn’t add up. Oscar is strong yes, but if you are also arguing that Red Bull is just as fast, then there’s no reason to focus specifically on beating Oscar. Beating Oscar is no guarantee of a championship if there are other cars which are just as fast. You have to beat everyone.

Focusing on Oscar would just indicate that you do think you have a clear advantage and that it’s just between the two of you.

[mwillems]

But why would Lando only worry about his teammate? We are now told (by you and Lando) that the Red Bull is also fast and that he expected the Red Bull to challenge.

I didn't say he was only worried about him. I said he wants to beat his teammate, if he pulls his punches he's going to struggle to win in his own team, let alone the championship.

Your teammate is the first guy you've got to beat.

Your post says he feel pressure specifically because he needs to beat his teammate. But if Red Bull is just as fast, then why doesn’t he also need to beat the Red Bull?

Lando has tried to push a narrative about his “strong teammate” but it doesn’t add up. Oscar is strong yes, but if you are also arguing that Red Bull is just as fast, then there’s no reason to focus specifically on beating Oscar. Beating Oscar is no guarantee of a championship if there are other cars which are just as fast. You have to beat everyone.

Focusing on Oscar would just indicate that you do think you have a clear advantage and that it’s just between the two of you.

I'm not sure why though.

They are in the same car and he knows he has to extract a little more to be ahead of Oscar, if he doesn't do that, he'll struggle to win, especially with two cars the same pace, on a lot of these tracks, even having several tenths more speed at a given point means you can't overtake. Like I said, first person you need to beat and you know has similar pace to you is your team mate. He needs to make sure he is getting more from the car than Oscar.

I'm sure he also feels the pressure to be ahead of Max, but it is more acceptable to be beaten by Max than Oscar.

Think of it this way, what will everyone be saying at the end of this season if this is the year that Oscar surpasses him? There's a lot at stake here mate, that intra team battle hasn't been spoken about, but these guys are fighting to be the priority later in the year.

My take, and I've felt this for a while, is that when it comes to the mental approach, Oscar wins and I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago, and I think it might have been to you. A better mental approach and resilience is worth more than a tenth on the track.

My other take, Lando is pushing the car beyond what it is comfortable at times, he should be able to read it, but he can't stop trying to get the extra time the car doesn't always want to give, and until he adapts his approach, he will continue to lose ground to Oscar.

Whiulst I do think the car has moved towards Oscar, I also don't buy into this being unfair, because we have no idea how much he car was "away" from Oscar last year. At the end of the day, you have to drive it. but the main takeaway is that Lando, if he chases the peak speeds the impress everyone, is going to continue to make mistakes. if he doesn't chase the peak speeds, it's close with RB and sometimes Merc.

And in time, people will realise that the cars peak speed is a dream that sometimes comes true, and sometimes you wake up in a cold sweat lol

Edit: Worth mentioning that the earlier you get priority the bigger the chance for the WDC. Oscar is showing that driving just within your limits is the way to maximise points in this car, not going faster.

[mwillems]

I think Miami is going to be the dream, and it's the kind of track that Oscar isn't quite so comfortable on, so let's see what happens.

[Waz]

I'm curious how it went from Lando having difficulties braking to a full blown tricky car? These are F1 cars, they're always tricky.

But the narrative is sounding more like excuses for one side of the garage not delivering.

Uncomfortable with brakes.
Not suitable during turn in.
Unpredictable grip level with sudden drop off.

None of this is showing on Piastri's side.

[mwillems]

Well yeah. But the point made is that it is because he is trying to take too much from the car. When it lets you, fine, it's quick, when it doesn't, you can't string laps together or Bin it. I'm not questioning that it's on Lando, the point made is that I suspect the way it needs to be driven is more like what Oscar is doing, which is a bit more within limits and Lando is not adapting or choosing very well when to take risks. Something that in my opinion he has always done.

I don't buy into Stella's "Lando is too fast for the car" malarkey. We can all go too fast round a corner, lose it and blame the car. The car has limits and Lando expects the car to behave in a way that it doesn't want to, and because it is sometimes OK, sometimes not depending on the track, he seems to always push it and doesn't respect the cars traits. Then he complains afterwards, oh the car, the car. Get over it mate and drive it properly.

His crash at the weekend was because he was doing things with the car it doesn't want to do, and that isn't the cars fault.

if Lando were to make a better hash at choosing when to take risks, his ultimate laptimes would likely slow a little but this would be an accurate reflection of the pace of the car if you want to get consistent podiums and wins.