[MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2023 (Grand Prix Cars)

[G-raph]

Great renders, the cars looks fantastic with these. And great video as always!

Wow, I certainly didn't expect -6.0Cl. Based on last year correlation between my Fast settings and the real MVRC simulations, I was expecting around -5.4 or -5.5, which would have been very close to Variante. But I'm obviously thrilled by the result, and I'm now scared to change anything on the car!

And well done to everyone as all the cars have made a significant step since last year.

Regarding my floor winglet, I'm 100% sure it is legal. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and came to the conclusion there was only one way to draw it legally, which is what I have done.
I think it would be unfair if I got a penalty for Race 02 without having time to react, so can I please ask the MVRC organisers to specifically check this as soon as possible, and confirm whether they are happy with it or not well ahead of Race 02?

My view is that it respects all floor rules, particularly these relevant ones :

12.2.1 Entirely obscure RS-02-FLOOR-PLAN_V03 when viewed from below.

There is no gap (in X) between the main floor and the winglet, so the legality surface is fully obscured.

12.3 When intersected with any X-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

As the "slot" is drawn on an X-plane, there is always one continuous section in any X-plane. It is a simple extrude in the Y direction so this section is always visible from either above or below.

12.4 When intersected with any Y-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

There are 2 separate closed sections in the Y-planes, which is now allowed as the rules have been changed from "only one continuous closed section" (last year) to "only continuous closed sections" (this year). The first one is the main floor edge, the second one is the winglet.
There is no overlap between these 2 sections so they never obscure one another and therefore all parts of both sections are always visible from above or below.

[CAEdevice]

Great renders, the cars looks fantastic with these. And great video as always!

Wow, I certainly didn't expect -6.0Cl. Based on last year correlation between my Fast settings and the real MVRC simulations, I was expecting around -5.4 or -5.5, which would have been very close to Variante. But I'm obviously thrilled by the result, and I'm now scared to change anything on the car!

And well done to everyone as all the cars have made a significant step since last year.

Regarding my floor winglet, I'm 100% sure it is legal. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and came to the conclusion there was only one way to draw it legally, which is what I have done.
I think it would be unfair if I got a penalty for Race 02 without having time to react, so can I please ask the MVRC organisers to specifically check this as soon as possible, and confirm whether they are happy with it or not well ahead of Race 02?

My view is that it respects all floor rules, particularly these relevant ones :

12.2.1 Entirely obscure RS-02-FLOOR-PLAN_V03 when viewed from below.

There is no gap (in X) between the main floor and the winglet, so the legality surface is fully obscured.

12.3 When intersected with any X-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

As the "slot" is drawn on an X-plane, there is always one continuous section in any X-plane. It is a simple extrude in the Y direction so this section is always visible from either above or below.

12.4 When intersected with any Y-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

There are 2 separate closed sections in the Y-planes, which is now allowed as the rules have been changed from "only one continuous closed section" (last year) to "only continuous closed sections" (this year). The first one is the main floor edge, the second one is the winglet.
There is no overlap between these 2 sections so they never obscure one another and therefore all parts of both sections are always visible from above or below.

First, congratulations on an outstanding performance.

I struggled with my hardware to get the maximum correlation (using the heaviest template) and I failed... I think your ability to imagine the behavior of the simulation based on a less refined mesh is the basis of the success (together to a couple of clever solutions that I won't list because ... I want to be the one to copy them )

About the rule "12.4 When intersected with any Y-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below." I do not agree.

From my point of view, from my point of view, in the area we are discussing (the slot in front of the rear wheels), the section produced is not "continuous" but made up of two continuous "sub" sections. The expression "all the sections", from my point of view, must be understood as "all the sections obtained by varying the Y value which identifies the section plane"

Following your interpretation, even a "wing diffuser" (like the one designed by Variante a few years ago) would be fine.

Anyway, I agree about the urgency to clarify this point.

[beschadigunc]

Great renders, the cars looks fantastic with these. And great video as always!

Wow, I certainly didn't expect -6.0Cl. Based on last year correlation between my Fast settings and the real MVRC simulations, I was expecting around -5.4 or -5.5, which would have been very close to Variante. But I'm obviously thrilled by the result, and I'm now scared to change anything on the car!

And well done to everyone as all the cars have made a significant step since last year.

Regarding my floor winglet, I'm 100% sure it is legal. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and came to the conclusion there was only one way to draw it legally, which is what I have done.
I think it would be unfair if I got a penalty for Race 02 without having time to react, so can I please ask the MVRC organisers to specifically check this as soon as possible, and confirm whether they are happy with it or not well ahead of Race 02?

My view is that it respects all floor rules, particularly these relevant ones :

12.2.1 Entirely obscure RS-02-FLOOR-PLAN_V03 when viewed from below.

There is no gap (in X) between the main floor and the winglet, so the legality surface is fully obscured.

12.3 When intersected with any X-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

As the "slot" is drawn on an X-plane, there is always one continuous section in any X-plane. It is a simple extrude in the Y direction so this section is always visible from either above or below.

12.4 When intersected with any Y-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below.

There are 2 separate closed sections in the Y-planes, which is now allowed as the rules have been changed from "only one continuous closed section" (last year) to "only continuous closed sections" (this year). The first one is the main floor edge, the second one is the winglet.
There is no overlap between these 2 sections so they never obscure one another and therefore all parts of both sections are always visible from above or below.

First, congratulations on an outstanding performance.

I struggled with my hardware to get the maximum correlation (using the heaviest template) and I failed... I think your ability to imagine the behavior of the simulation based on a less refined mesh is the basis of the success (together to a couple of clever solutions that I won't list because ... I want to be the one to copy them )

About the rule "12.4 When intersected with any Y-plane, it must only produce only continuous closed sections with all parts of the section either visibly from above or below." I do not agree.

From my point of view, from my point of view, in the area we are discussing (the slot in front of the rear wheels), the section produced is not "continuous" but made up of two continuous "sub" sections. The expression "all the sections", from my point of view, must be understood as "all the sections obtained by varying the Y value which identifies the section plane"

Following your interpretation, even a "wing diffuser" (like the one designed by Variante a few years ago) would be fine.

Anyway, I agree about the urgency to clarify this point.

I think to keep the rules similar to F1 we can change the rules so that floor edge is allow for playground but not the rest of the floor ( only the thin part after tunnels in the volume box is playable with multiple sections)

[yinlad]

Even a sub section of the floor edge defined as a new reg box (see the fences regs box) would be an acceptable solution. I would like to see more floor edge development now, it feels very under utilised with the current rules

[variante]

Amazing performance from G-raph. Congratulations for the well deserved victory.
I didn't think anyone could get past CLA 6 at the first race already. It won't be easy to make up for the gap...

Nice to see Max back on the podium. And nice to see that most other cars are tightly packed right behind.

As for me, it's an overall positive first race. My simulations correlate decently with the official ones, which was the most important thing, but i suspect that fine tuning (like precise vortex management) is not going to correlate easily.

PS: nice new car renders! Are we going to see CFD images as well?

[yinlad]

I dont mind sharing these as I'll be submitting an almost entirely new car for R02. So feel free to point out anything obvious that needs fixing

[variante]

I dont mind sharing these as I'll be submitting an almost entirely new car for R02. So feel free to point out anything obvious that needs fixing

https://i.imgur.com/5Ua1ewC.png
https://i.imgur.com/mmVMD5Z.png
https://i.imgur.com/otUUa8v.png
https://i.imgur.com/vesV9Wo.png
https://i.imgur.com/ahQLp1c.png

The anomaly that strikes me is that you've placed your diffuser's throat a lot toward the rear of the car.
Nice vortices under the floor and, as for the rest, it all looks roughly normal.

It's hard to judge these cars without having the full picture (or, in this case, all MFlow pictures...).

[yinlad]

I dont mind sharing these as I'll be submitting an almost entirely new car for R02. So feel free to point out anything obvious that needs fixing

https://i.imgur.com/5Ua1ewC.png
https://i.imgur.com/mmVMD5Z.png
https://i.imgur.com/otUUa8v.png
https://i.imgur.com/vesV9Wo.png
https://i.imgur.com/ahQLp1c.png

The anomaly that strikes me is that you've placed your diffuser's throat a lot toward the rear of the car.
Nice vortices under the floor and, as for the rest, it all looks roughly normal.

It's hard to judge these cars without having the full picture (or, in this case, all MFlow pictures...).

Yeah my new floor addresses this for the most part. The R01 floor was making somewhere between -2.0 and -2.2Cl (from memory) the newest iteration I have is a big step on from that.

The balancing act I am juggling now is adding front downforce without killing the rear wing, floor and cooling

[G-raph]

First of all, thanks everyone for the kind congratulation messages. Sorry I forgot to mention that in my previous post.

I think your ability to imagine the behavior of the simulation based on a less refined mesh is the basis of the success (together to a couple of clever solutions that I won't list because ... I want to be the one to copy them )

Thanks! I followed the same philosophy I described last year, chasing clean flow features, sometimes at the expense of Cl numbers with the fast settings, and I think this has served me well with the more refined official simulation.

From my point of view, from my point of view, in the area we are discussing (the slot in front of the rear wheels), the section produced is not "continuous" but made up of two continuous "sub" sections. The expression "all the sections", from my point of view, must be understood as "all the sections obtained by varying the Y value which identifies the section plane"

Following your interpretation, even a "wing diffuser" (like the one designed by Variante a few years ago) would be fine.

Anyway, I agree about the urgency to clarify this point.

That's where I disagree. What you're desbribing is fundamentally a unique closed section, which is how it was written last year. Again, the fact that the word "one" has been removed and a plural added to "sections" must mean that more than one is now allowed. It just mean each of these sections has to be continuous and closed (= containing no hole in it).

And yes, that means that the current rules allow for wing diffuser or even full double diffuser. Fortunately I don't think these cars would really benefit from those, but admittedly I haven't tried.

And yes, I also agree with all of you that this is not right and that we should go back to last year's wording for the main floor (with the single section rule) and have this year's rule (multiple sections but still fully visible from below or above) in the floor edge area.
I also think that the main thing limiting floor edge design is actually the requirement to shadow the RS-02-FLOOR-PLAN_V03 surface, so it would be nice if the floor edge region was also exempt of that.

The balancing act I am juggling now is adding front downforce without killing the rear wing, floor and cooling

You might want to review your front wing profiles, it seems like the second element suction peak doesn't connect well with the first element trailing edge. I believe there is free Cl there that wouldn't require a full camber change and therefore minimal impact downstream.
And I agree with Variante about the diffuser kickpoint being too far rearwards.

[LVDH]

I dont mind sharing these as I'll be submitting an almost entirely new car for R02. So feel free to point out anything obvious that needs fixing

This is great. I will look for a new can of pink paint for the new car. Maybe also some red for Max.
I kind of forgot that I have to present all the new teams and also CFD images for the race. I will try to do this tomorrow.



Regarding the rule discussion. It took me some time, but I decided to slightly modify the rules regarding the floor. They are now updated. Mainly, I have changed the wording (no idea where the thing with the plural of cross sections ever came from), in a way that allows multiple elements in the outside areas of the floor. I think some elements there are what we see in F1 and I did want to avoid a double diffuser. Depending on what I see, I might adjust the max number of sections. I think in this race, there was one car that had quite a few. Now, please keep in mind, we are dealing with limited mesh sizes, so there is a high chance off the mesher closing the gap between too many small and close together elements.

I also had a good look on the new king in the town. His car is simply designed for maximum downforce in every aspect. If you guys want to get close, do not look for violations on that car but adopt the philosophy behind it and tweak every area where you suspect to gain some of this elusive downforce and get it.

[yinlad]

Exciting rule change. 550mm includes some tunnel area I think so hopefully people keep within the spirit of the rule and use it for floor edge development only

[LVDH]

Exciting rule change. 550mm includes some tunnel area I think so hopefully people keep within the spirit of the rule and use it for floor edge development only

How does this touch "tunnel area"?

And I have to announce, I will delay the next race by a week (maybe it will be two).

[yinlad]

Exciting rule change. 550mm includes some tunnel area I think so hopefully people keep within the spirit of the rule and use it for floor edge development only

How does this touch "tunnel area"?

And I have to announce, I will delay the next race by a week (maybe it will be two).

Perhaps I measured erroneously, will double check later

[yinlad]

Exciting rule change. 550mm includes some tunnel area I think so hopefully people keep within the spirit of the rule and use it for floor edge development only

How does this touch "tunnel area"?

And I have to announce, I will delay the next race by a week (maybe it will be two).

the half box marks out what I believe the rules describe as the inside 550mm area. The poorly drawn line is theoretical maximum width of the tunnels


I can't immediately think of something that you could abuse in that area, but just thought it was worth noting if the intent was purely for floor edge development

[CAEdevice]

It would be enough to allow double sections in the 50-100 mm wide strip starting from the lateral edge of the floor obscured surface (I don't remeber the exactly name, I am on holyday )