Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

I assume you haven't seen the video where Cowell says they can deploy all the time in Canada, but they can't in Baku.
He also said that during Q they can deploy whole lap.

i have no doubt that mercedes can "deploy all the time" (are able too) around a lap, of course senza braking and lifting, but that i have already explianed how its done numbers deployed and all. and by the way, the same Andy Cowel you calling on is the one i was lambasted for qouting on here. it is now emerging that when it suits some it is OK to qoute Andy Cowel but not when it does not.

But he is talking exact part of the Baku circuit where they ran out of energy and engine "derated".
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DCZsXQ98FCM&t=2s

Yes you are right and quoting Cowell correctly, might interest you that at that time Mark Hughes was telling me that Mercedes “had a stronger battery which they developed themselves and could deploy for longer than FERRARI on the long Baku straights”. But anyhow back on subject, we have to remember that Mercedes is one of the two top when it comes to the ability of deploying all around a lap and that is for lap after lap, which means that they are able to harvest “ALL’ of what they deploy (one cannot deploy more than what he can harvest). In turn this leads us to understand that even Mercedes harvesting capabilities were not enough to compensate for the ultra-long Baku straights.

[saviour stivala]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

[turbof1]

No. The 33.33s was a simplification/error made by the press early in 2014. 33.33s of 120kw is 4MJ. Only, we already established they are able to output more than 4MJ across a lap (although more of a Q lap than anything else).

You are correct to state the peak power output on the crankshaft is limited. However, how long you are allowed to deploy the 120kw is unlimited. Take a hypothetical lap where you are 50s on throttle. If you are able to, you are effectively allowed to deploy 120kw those whole 50s.

in my opinion anybody claiming that they are able to output more than 4MJ per lap is out of order. I fully understand your explanation and reasoning and thanks for your troubles, but I don't agree. and also what we are talking about has nothing to do with qualifying modes. this just to eliminate that from the discussion.

What you ultimately can harvest and thus provide for deployment does depend on track layout. We are speaking about data that is among the most coveted in F1, and also the most save guarded, so any information on what manufacturers can actually harvest is enormously hard to come by. Honda did made a black 'n white claim they upped MGU-K harvesting from 2MJ to 3MJ a lap (store 2MJ through MGU-K > ES, other 1MJ drives the MGU-H which produces on its own close to 1MJ and stores that on the ES). I have my doubts as well if they can keep pounding out more than 4MJ lap after lap after lap. What I spoke of, is what is theoritically allowed. It's a different matter getting it converted into practice of course. It should be possible in qualifying, that's why I mentioned it, but during the race? Maybe during the first couple of laps or after an extended period of harvesting with less deployment during that period, again for a couple of laps.

Also regarding what Andy Cowell said: do be critical about what he said. Either he'll not be saying much at all with a lot of words, or he'll be stating outright lies. It's far from his employees interest to hand out actual information that again is highly coveted and safeguarded. Him throwing out bones to keep everybody quiet isn't a whole lot to go from.

[wuzak]

In the new configuration pilots can exploit the electric power (max 160 horses) for a lap time of almost 50 seconds, much more than in the past

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/anali ... 07/882107/

That suggests a total of around 6MJ. Per lap. At Barcelona.

[Tommy Cookers]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

the driver doesn't lift the throttle
he lifts the accelerator pedal (we know this has a very long travel) which in various ways alters the PU behaviour
2d mapping (and driver-switchable elements ?) determine where the throttle and other control devices go

[wuzak]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

Derating happens when the car can no longer deploy power to the MGUK. Also known as clipping.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2016/0 ... h.html?m=1

In the picture on board with Kimi you can clearly see that the speed is higher at the beginning of the straight than closer to the end, and Kimi is nowhere near the corner. And he still has the pedal down fully.

[saviour stivala]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

the driver doesn't lift the throttle
he lifts the accelerator pedal (we know this has a very long travel) which in various ways alters the PU behaviour
2d mapping (and driver-switchable elements ?) determine where the throttle and other control devices go

Yes, the driver doesn't lift the throttle, he lefts the accelerator pedal you are correct. simple people at my level fully understand what I was saying, but on the other hand not so simple people and at a much higher level tends to get confused. am sorry about that, next time I will try be a bit better. and I will try to find out how very long a travel the accelerator pedal is.

[turbof1]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

the driver doesn't lift the throttle
he lifts the accelerator pedal (we know this has a very long travel) which in various ways alters the PU behaviour
2d mapping (and driver-switchable elements ?) determine where the throttle and other control devices go

Yes, the driver doesn't lift the throttle, he lefts the accelerator pedal you are correct. simple people at my level fully understand what I was saying, but on the other hand not so simple people and at a much higher level tends to get confused. am sorry about that, next time I will try be a bit better. and I will try to find out how very long a travel the accelerator pedal is.

This is a very political correct forum as you saw yourself .

[saviour stivala]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

Derating happens when the car can no longer deploy power to the MGUK. Also known as clipping.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2016/0 ... h.html?m=1

In the picture on board with Kimi you can clearly see that the speed is higher at the beginning of the straight than closer to the end, and Kimi is nowhere near the corner. And he still has the pedal down fully.

Such as when lifting. and to be exact "lifting of the throttle pedal" Wuzak, the last part wasn't for you, am sure you would have understood if i left it at just "lifting".

[saviour stivala]

So now we have something else added to the “Honda harvests even under power” of which I said it was legal/permitted, as evidenced and done in Hungary by Vandoorne. What was added now is that Honda harvests 3MJ through the MGU-K and this on black on white. How Honda can or is allowed to harvest 1MJ more than is permitted by the MGU-K and gets it post the FIA flow measuring sensor is beyond me. I am saying this because when I look at the FIA energy flow chart the charts show flow from engine to MGU-K and from MGU-K to engine being stated as limited, and as I also understand it, it is because this flow is limited that a flow measuring sensor is mandated at the MGU-K.
Somebody mentioned “clipping”. Clipping happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). Those that their turbo/MGU-H combination allows the MGU-H to click-in/comes on-line, their MGU-H will be rapidly re-charging the ES, those that their turbo/MGU-H combination does not allow this, they will normally have to revert to harvesting by the MGU-K under power/by burning fuel,

[saviour stivala]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

Derating happens when the car can no longer deploy power to the MGUK. Also known as clipping.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2016/0 ... h.html?m=1

In the picture on board with Kimi you can clearly see that the speed is higher at the beginning of the straight than closer to the end, and Kimi is nowhere near the corner. And he still has the pedal down fully.

Clipping: happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up by the MGU-K and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). This doesn’t happen to everybody, only to those that the MGU-H/TURBO combination is able to harvest and rapidly charge the empty ES, Those that their MGU-H/TURBO combination cannot harvest will have to resort to harvest by the MGU-K under power/when burning fuel.

[sosic2121]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

IMO no, you are 100% wrong.
derate is reduction of power while demand (throttle at 100%) is unchanged.

[henry]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

IMO no, you are 100% wrong.
derate is reduction of power while demand (throttle at 100%) is unchanged.

I absolutely agree. It’s why Hamilton complained about it at Baku s couple of years ago. If it was something he initiated by lifting the pedal he’d have no complaint.

Similarly it doesn’t happen when the ES is empty but when the SOC management software decided it needs to harvest some to prepare for the next segment of track. I phrase it like that because it isn’t lap dependant.

[wuzak]

And another thing if you don't mind. "derating" happens when driver lifts throttle.

Derating happens when the car can no longer deploy power to the MGUK. Also known as clipping.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2016/0 ... h.html?m=1

In the picture on board with Kimi you can clearly see that the speed is higher at the beginning of the straight than closer to the end, and Kimi is nowhere near the corner. And he still has the pedal down fully.

Clipping: happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up by the MGU-K and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). This doesn’t happen to everybody, only to those that the MGU-H/TURBO combination is able to harvest and rapidly charge the empty ES, Those that their MGU-H/TURBO combination cannot harvest will have to resort to harvest by the MGU-K under power/when burning fuel.

Clipping/derating is when the ES is out on energy and the MGUK no longer can provide 120kW of power to the drive train. The MGUH does not switch on, it changes from feeding the MGUK to feeding the ES.

[subcritical71]

So now we have something else added to the “Honda harvests even under power” of which I said it was legal/permitted, as evidenced and done in Hungary by Vandoorne. What was added now is that Honda harvests 3MJ through the MGU-K and this on black on white. How Honda can or is allowed to harvest 1MJ more than is permitted by the MGU-K and gets it post the FIA flow measuring sensor is beyond me. I am saying this because when I look at the FIA energy flow chart the charts show flow from engine to MGU-K and from MGU-K to engine being stated as limited, and as I also understand it, it is because this flow is limited that a flow measuring sensor is mandated at the MGU-K.
Somebody mentioned “clipping”. Clipping happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). Those that their turbo/MGU-H combination allows the MGU-H to click-in/comes on-line, their MGU-H will be rapidly re-charging the ES, those that their turbo/MGU-H combination does not allow this, they will normally have to revert to harvesting by the MGU-K under power/by burning fuel,

This could be the extra harvest mode. There are two things;
1) energy is sent from the K to the H and then on to the ES. The energy from K to H is unlimited as is the pathway from H to ES (K still limited to +/-120w power).
2) Honda have shown they are able to switch the H from generating to supercharging mode at a rate of 20 to 40 Hz (switches every 25 to 50 msec). This is the method of temporarily storing energy (inertia, electronics) so that the teams can bypass the ES <> K limits.

henry has some good posts on how the energy flows could be calculated based off of time delays for when the energy is sent to when it arrives at battery. From the data I've seen on a similar energy sensor used in FE, the sampling rate can be as high as 1000 Hz (1 msec), so fast enough by a wide margin for the known Honda switching rate.