Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[wesley123]

Ow, that is same as the outboard mirrors being worth half an second a lap and only half of the teams ran it, like was said before, teams will run anything that gives gains, so why didnt mclaren for example ran it?

It is same as the F-Duct being worth 6 tenths but it isnt actually noticable, i rather think it is worth a tenth

[Blackout]

The ''problem'' is that Mclaren's lower rear wishbones are very low and close to the floor, unlike Ferrari ones... But the way the bodywork and the DD are ''connected'' under these wishbones could be interesting for new exhausts




I also wonder how they'll modify their combined Deck/beam (if the rumours are true)...

[jason.parker.86]

Can someone enlighten me as to why it is so difficult to just move the exhausts. I understand you have to make space for it, etc... but I thought exahust pipes are just pipes carrying out the gasses? Why do Macca have to talk to Mercedes HPE for? Do these exhausts have to be something special (i.e. certain angles)?

[Carlo's]

Teams really have to avoid problems with new exhaust, for example cracking or something else. Some tweaks to the diffuser must be done to get everything to work, maybe also some changes to the floor and underbody.

[marcush.]

for sure fitting 4 equal length pipes together with steps in the primaries at exactly the same distance ,plus avoiding sharp turns ,avoid turns more than 45° ,absolutely avoid 90°bends ,but must not have anything approaching 90 or even 180 or even more degrees of bending...very quickly you end up compromising the ideal exhaust pipe configuration...thats for sure.
I´m pretty sure todays f1 engines do not have a single "cheated" pipe joint ,a joint were the pipes are not joined exactly perpendicular to each other...but still it is not simple ....

[ringo]

With today's engineering tools, i think it's a matter of hours to redesign the exhaust. Cracking from thermal stress is the most unpredictable issue. Other than that, they have all the tools to get the job done then onto manufacturing.

What will take time, is integrating the exhaust with their floor, suspension and diffuser. Ferrari's car doesn't have this problem because of it's simplicity. Which is another reason i think the ferrari has the best platform for development.
Mclaren will have to redesign suspension, floor and upper deck diffuser, or they can just run the exhaust as is and focus on something else.

edit: come to think of it, I don't think Mclaren can implement the redbull exhuast, without changine the whole rear suspension and diffuser; this just looking at some images of the rear of the car.

[jason.parker.86]

Im not all that technical, but the Macca rear end does look very over engineered and fragile compared to other F1 cars.

[marcush.]

With today's engineering tools, i think it's a matter of hours to redesign the exhaust. Cracking from thermal stress is the most unpredictable issue. Other than that, they have all the tools to get the job done then onto manufacturing.

What will take time, is integrating the exhaust with their floor, suspension and diffuser. Ferrari's car doesn't have this problem because of it's simplicity. Which is another reason i think the ferrari has the best platform for development.
Mclaren will have to redesign suspension, floor and upper deck diffuser, or they can just run the exhaust as is and focus on something else.

edit: come to think of it, I don't think Mclaren can implement the redbull exhuast, without changine the whole rear suspension and diffuser; this just looking at some images of the rear of the car.

of course you are right ..you can build up a list of constraints and if there is a solution it will pop out quite quickly.Looking at the guys doing CAD work in my environment it will still take a lot of hours getting all finished up and of course you will need a set of data for each piece of section to machine the faces.
all this based on the assumption that those mandrel bends do really have exactly the radii you have in your CAd system... or reality does not match up with your beautiful 3d mockups..maybe it s not as easy as it seems on first sight...but at least they all do have some expert TIG welders and fabricators to make it happen..

[wesley123]

edit: come to think of it, I don't think Mclaren can implement the redbull exhuast, without changine the whole rear suspension and diffuser; this just looking at some images of the rear of the car.

That was my whole point afterall, the mclarens rear end is too tight to incorporate such an thing, look at where the exhaust exits, it is the only spot where there is place for it, lower there it is wider and thus sidepods have to be wider too, wich actually destroys the whole idea of the mclaren sidepods. Also at the floor, they have an cooling exit there, they might use that hole in conjunction with the floor hole

[marcush.]

quite interesting the dd floor already rising in the area of that lower cooling exit which is somewhat blocked by the lower forwarward wishboneleg .... it seems they need to have a flat and wide exhaust tip to get under that wishbone but then could position a slit across the dd ramp to energise the flow there with exhaust stream ???? that could help the flow in this area tremendously I could imagine.the exhaust tailpipe diameters are not that big this year so if they make a tip around half inch height it could just work out...

[aral]

quite interesting the dd floor already rising in the area of that lower cooling exit which is somewhat blocked by the lower forwarward wishboneleg .... it seems they need to have a flat and wide exhaust tip to get under that wishbone but then could position a slit across the dd ramp to energise the flow there with exhaust stream ???? that could help the flow in this area tremendously I could imagine.the exhaust tailpipe diameters are not that big this year so if they make a tip around half inch height it could just work out...

As current pipes are around 2 inches+ in diameter, to have a flattened pipe of 0.5inch high, would require a width of around 9inches to provide the same cross section. This would be practically impossible.

[marcush.]

ok ,its again :bore me with maths.. you are obviously right but of course it does not take too much of total height to get into ballpark figures with a width that could be acomodated with ease...
so I claim to have less than an inch of tailpipe height could do the trick ... with a bit of shielding on the wishbone ..maybe it was possible .. but for Macs it really is not quite an easy solution...thats for sure.

[Shaddock]

quite interesting the dd floor already rising in the area of that lower cooling exit which is somewhat blocked by the lower forwarward wishboneleg .... it seems they need to have a flat and wide exhaust tip to get under that wishbone but then could position a slit across the dd ramp to energise the flow there with exhaust stream ???? that could help the flow in this area tremendously I could imagine.the exhaust tailpipe diameters are not that big this year so if they make a tip around half inch height it could just work out...

As current pipes are around 2 inches+ in diameter, to have a flattened pipe of 0.5inch high, would require a width of around 9inches to provide the same cross section. This would be practically impossible.

There looks enough space (width) to drop the exhaust and have good flow into the diffuser, it's the mounting of the lower wishbone that would need to be raised a couple on inches along with the drive shaft (ek gearbox)

Old-ish photo


RebBull style

[autogyro]

Yes but with push rod suspension on the Macca, moving the exhaust down would still leave the rear dampers and rear suspension linkage and springing in exactly the wrong place. It would still prevent lowering the rear cowling enough so as to feed a smooth flow over the diffuser.
To do so would need a pull rod with the suspension under the gearbox like the RB and I do not believe they have either enough time or the testing available to achieve that.
OK the FIA seem to have allowed all the teams to 'demonstrate' for a day but that is hardly enough for such major changes.
The updates on the Macca and all the others will only be enough if the RB stands still.

[ringo]

I dont see the relation whether its push or pull rod. What i think their problem is, is the distance between the lower control arm and their floor, which seems to be ramping upward pretty early compared to the other cars.
The only implication of the pull rod is that becuase the suspension parts are under the car, the control arms can be placed higher, almost having the upper control arms connected at the very top of the gear box.

Mclaren or ferrari dont neccesarily need to change suspension layout. Mclaren need to compromise their diffuser volume, by reducing the steepness of the floor, to creat more room for the exhaust gasses. They also have to bore a hole somewhwere in this:

this big ole wall connecting the bridge wing and the floor.