2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[chrisc90]

That was Horner who said that.

I have seen rumours said an early upgrade package a few weekends in.

Oh, what’s the advantages to a S-duct?

[dialtone]

The new Merc has so many changes, rear suspension, driver further back, completely revised aero. It has every chance of being an enormous step forward. RB too has made big changes, what is to say that is a hit. I hope so and I trust in it a bit, but to me, the proof is in those first races and I just gave an example where a big surprise happened in recent years. Maybe there were some hints towards that at end 2020, sure, but still, not many believed it to be possible.

It is perhaps only logical to think along those lines, it happened during the merc years as well, nobility obliges, but I will wait and see. To me it isn’t a foregone conclusion. Not any year is.

Yeah but a lot of cars (Merc, Ferrari, AMR) have made visually big changes from what they had, only for their cars to roughly resemble where the RB was last year in terms of concept. The Ferrari basically resembles a launch spec RB19, AMR resembles a late season RB19, and the Merc is on the same type of concept as RB19 with some novelties such as the FW. I would be very surprised if all these cars end up being 0,5-1s faster than the RB19, which is realistically where they will have to be if RB hits their development targets on the RB20. But we will see, stranger things have happened.

Virtually nothing but sidepod shape is the same between SF-24 and RB19. Practically each fundamental part of the car is not just different but opposite.

[Cs98]

The new Merc has so many changes, rear suspension, driver further back, completely revised aero. It has every chance of being an enormous step forward. RB too has made big changes, what is to say that is a hit. I hope so and I trust in it a bit, but to me, the proof is in those first races and I just gave an example where a big surprise happened in recent years. Maybe there were some hints towards that at end 2020, sure, but still, not many believed it to be possible.

It is perhaps only logical to think along those lines, it happened during the merc years as well, nobility obliges, but I will wait and see. To me it isn’t a foregone conclusion. Not any year is.

Yeah but a lot of cars (Merc, Ferrari, AMR) have made visually big changes from what they had, only for their cars to roughly resemble where the RB was last year in terms of concept. The Ferrari basically resembles a launch spec RB19, AMR resembles a late season RB19, and the Merc is on the same type of concept as RB19 with some novelties such as the FW. I would be very surprised if all these cars end up being 0,5-1s faster than the RB19, which is realistically where they will have to be if RB hits their development targets on the RB20. But we will see, stranger things have happened.

Virtually nothing but sidepod shape is the same between SF-24 and RB19. Practically each fundamental part of the car is not just different but opposite.

Nose, anti-dive front suspension, sidepod inlet underbite (early RB19), sidepod undercut, engine cover shape and outlets, anti-squat rear. Basically every area of the car we can see has in some way converged on what the RB19 was doing. That doesn't mean the cars are identical or all those parts I listed are identical, perhaps the most fundamental difference being the pull-rod rear, but the overall concept is converging towards that of the RB19. That's just the reality of it.

[AR3-GP]

Virtually nothing but sidepod shape is the same between SF-24 and RB19. Practically each fundamental part of the car is not just different but opposite.

You also claimed the RB20 is virtually the same as the Rb19 ("a lip and maybe a sidepod inlet") so I'm not sure if there's something deliberate going on.

Ferrari copied sidepod, engine cover, DRS shroud, nose, SIS, mirrors, narrow gearbox etc of RB19. Just because push rod /pull rod are swapped front and rear doesn't mean the concept is different. Cardile said suspension is not an important detail so it's hardly an argument to use suspension to claim the cars diametrically opposed. Even last year they told us that Ferrari brought Honda engineer and they started using RB deployment strategies to help their tire wear.

[dialtone]

Nose, anti-dive front suspension, sidepod inlet underbite, sidepod undercut, engine cover shape, anti-squat rear. Basically every area of the car we can see has in some way converged on what the RB19 was doing. That doesn't mean the cars are identical or all those parts I listed are identical, perhaps the most fundamental difference being the pull-rod rear, but the overall concept is converging towards that of the RB19. That's just the reality of it.

Engine cover shape? Between a center-line cooling and a sidepod cooling concept? Front and rear suspensions are literally opposites, not sure how the nose is a copy of red bull when RBR has the blandest noses, if anything the vanity cover is a Ferrari thing for years. And then yeah you list sidepod changes which is also what I said, but even there SF-24 sidepods have waterslides where RB19 doesn't, does this mean every car with water slides resembles an Alpine?

Yeah I would agree that cars have taken inspiration from some RB18-19 ideas and implemented them, but to say that the SF-24 resembles an RB19 is just a big exaggeration. We go from ARGP saying that SF-24 is the same as SF-23 and it's a conservative car with barely any changes to its concept, to you saying that SF-24 is the same concept as RB19, which would be a complete change. All cars take inspiration from each other's ideas, look at the S-duct or vertical cooling in RB-20, doesn't make it an SF-23 or a W13-14.

[AR3-GP]

Nose, anti-dive front suspension, sidepod inlet underbite, sidepod undercut, engine cover shape, anti-squat rear. Basically every area of the car we can see has in some way converged on what the RB19 was doing. That doesn't mean the cars are identical or all those parts I listed are identical, perhaps the most fundamental difference being the pull-rod rear, but the overall concept is converging towards that of the RB19. That's just the reality of it.

We go from ARGP saying that SF-24 is the same as SF-23 and it's a conservative car with barely any changes to its concept,

I haven't said this anywhere .

What I did say is that cardile said the SF24 front suspension is carryover from SF23, but that otherwise Ferrari tried to imitate RB19.

[dialtone]

Virtually nothing but sidepod shape is the same between SF-24 and RB19. Practically each fundamental part of the car is not just different but opposite.

You also claimed the RB20 is virtually the same as the Rb19 ("a lip and maybe a sidepod inlet") so I'm not sure if there's something deliberate going on.

There is nothing deliberate, that's the same opinion I've read from others here and same as KYLE.ENGINEERS on youtube. I've also said that clearly they aren't showing the whole car if I trust that they took bold development ways.

Once again, there is nothing shocking here.

Ferrari copied sidepod, engine cover, DRS shroud, nose, SIS, mirrors, narrow gearbox etc of RB19. Just because push rod /pull rod are swapped front and rear doesn't mean the concept is different. Cardile said suspension is not an important detail so it's hardly an argument to use suspension to claim the cars diametrically opposed. Even last year they told us that Ferrari brought Honda engineer and they started using RB deployment strategies to help their tire wear.

lmao, sorry I can't have conversations like this.

[dialtone]

Nose, anti-dive front suspension, sidepod inlet underbite, sidepod undercut, engine cover shape, anti-squat rear. Basically every area of the car we can see has in some way converged on what the RB19 was doing. That doesn't mean the cars are identical or all those parts I listed are identical, perhaps the most fundamental difference being the pull-rod rear, but the overall concept is converging towards that of the RB19. That's just the reality of it.

We go from ARGP saying that SF-24 is the same as SF-23 and it's a conservative car with barely any changes to its concept,

I haven't said this anywhere .

What I did say is that cardile said the SF24 front suspension is carryover from SF23, but that otherwise Ferrari tried to imitate RB19.

This is you right? viewtopic.php?p=1184660#p1184660

[AR3-GP]

We go from ARGP saying that SF-24 is the same as SF-23 and it's a conservative car with barely any changes to its concept,

I haven't said this anywhere .

What I did say is that cardile said the SF24 front suspension is carryover from SF23, but that otherwise Ferrari tried to imitate RB19.

This is you right? viewtopic.php?p=1184660#p1184660

What it seems more like is similar to the SF23 and any changes made were to imitate a RB concept. The point is we were told it wouldn't be a copy, so I am surprised that the car looks the way it does.

The differences to RB currently are not "new". They are actually just unchanged parts of the SF23 like the front suspension, pullrod rear, and roll hoop inlet. That doesn't say "different design direction", it says "that's from last year and we didn't change it."

What I said is that SF24 either retains features of the SF23 or shifts towards RB19. Some areas are as the SF23 (suspension, roll hoop inlet), and many other areas are as the RB19 (you can read the post above). The SF24 IS a different concept because it's RB19-like.

The 2nd bit of the post is reference to your claim that the Sf24 is nothing like the RB19 but instead a different design direction. It's not. It's Rb19-like with unchanged concept of suspension and roll hoop of SF23.

[Cs98]

Nose, anti-dive front suspension, sidepod inlet underbite, sidepod undercut, engine cover shape, anti-squat rear. Basically every area of the car we can see has in some way converged on what the RB19 was doing. That doesn't mean the cars are identical or all those parts I listed are identical, perhaps the most fundamental difference being the pull-rod rear, but the overall concept is converging towards that of the RB19. That's just the reality of it.

Engine cover shape? Between a center-line cooling and a sidepod cooling concept? Front and rear suspensions are literally opposites, not sure how the nose is a copy of red bull when RBR has the blandest noses, if anything the vanity cover is a Ferrari thing for years. And then yeah you list sidepod changes which is also what I said, but even there SF-24 sidepods have waterslides where RB19 doesn't, does this mean every car with water slides resembles an Alpine?

Yeah I would agree that cars have taken inspiration from some RB18-19 ideas and implemented them, but to say that the SF-24 resembles an RB19 is just a big exaggeration. We go from ARGP saying that SF-24 is the same as SF-23 and it's a conservative car with barely any changes to its concept, to you saying that SF-24 is the same concept as RB19, which would be a complete change. All cars take inspiration from each other's ideas, look at the S-duct or vertical cooling in RB-20, doesn't make it an SF-23 or a W13-14.

The positioning of the channels and where they exit as cannon outlets is much more like RB19 than what they had previously. Ferrari have clearly moved cooling from the sidepod to the engine cover, it's blatantly obvious in side by sides of SF23 v SF24. The nose has gone to the same style of attachment as RB19 with a blunt nose attaching on the second element. You mention the suspension, the SF24 has converged on the RB19 because both front and rear are more anti-dive/anti-squat than previously, which is going towards the platform control of RB19. So yes, the SF24 is very much following the concept of RB19. AR3GP? I can't speak for him.

All cars take inspiration from each other's ideas, look at the S-duct or vertical cooling in RB-20, doesn't make it an SF-23 or a W13-14.

Indeed, and the running theme from front to back on the SF24 is it resembles the concept of RB19.

[dialtone]

The positioning of the channels and where they exit as cannon outlets is much more like RB19 than what they had previously. Ferrari have clearly moved cooling from the sidepod to the engine cover, it's blatantly obvious in side by sides of SF23 v SF24. The nose has gone to the same style of attachment as RB19 with a blunt nose attaching on the second element. You mention the suspension, the SF24 has converged on the RB19 because both front and rear are more anti-dive/anti-squat than previously, which is going towards the platform control of RB19. So yes, the SF24 is very much following the concept of RB19. AR3GP? I can't speak for him.

AFAIK the cannon cooling is an Alpha Tauri concept since 2022. And no Ferrari hasn't moved cooling in the engine cover because not enough air comes in the roll hoop to cool much of anything. What Ferrari did is move the hot air coming out of the engine cover a bit higher to not disturb the work of the diffuser with low pressure turbulent hot air. Which is likely just about the same idea that Alpha Tauri had in 2022.

RB18 also had the same cannon cooling, so it's also inspired there I suppose, but the Alpha Tauri concept is the one that won over all teams with the big cannons starting right from the cockpit, like pretty much everyone does now.

[Cs98]

The positioning of the channels and where they exit as cannon outlets is much more like RB19 than what they had previously. Ferrari have clearly moved cooling from the sidepod to the engine cover, it's blatantly obvious in side by sides of SF23 v SF24. The nose has gone to the same style of attachment as RB19 with a blunt nose attaching on the second element. You mention the suspension, the SF24 has converged on the RB19 because both front and rear are more anti-dive/anti-squat than previously, which is going towards the platform control of RB19. So yes, the SF24 is very much following the concept of RB19. AR3GP? I can't speak for him.

AFAIK the cannon cooling is an Alpha Tauri concept since 2022. And no Ferrari hasn't moved cooling in the engine cover because not enough air comes in the roll hoop to cool much of anything. What Ferrari did is move the hot air coming out of the engine cover a bit higher to not disturb the work of the diffuser with low pressure turbulent hot air. Which is likely just about the same idea that Alpha Tauri had in 2022.

RB18 also had the same cannon cooling, so it's also inspired there I suppose.

Now it's an Alpha Tauri idea? Here I am looking at RB18 with a big cannon outlet

What Ferrari did is move the hot air coming out of the engine cover a bit higher to not disturb the work of the diffuser with low pressure turbulent hot air.

Precisely, which has been a part of the RB concept.

[dialtone]

RB18 also had the same cannon cooling, so it's also inspired there I suppose.

Now it's an Alpha Tauri idea? Here I am looking at RB18 with a big cannon outlet

I edited my explanation for why I believe so in the message, probably after you clicked reply.

[Cs98]

RB18 also had the same cannon cooling, so it's also inspired there I suppose.

Now it's an Alpha Tauri idea? Here I am looking at RB18 with a big cannon outlet

I edited my explanation for why I believe so in the message, probably after you clicked reply.

This is getting OT in the RB thread, but I think it's quite clear a lot of teams have taken a lot of inspiration from RB19.

[AR3-GP]

This is getting OT in the RB thread, but I think it's quite clear a lot of teams have taken a lot of inspiration from RB19.

I would agree and having discussions about Alpha Tauri inventing engine covers is missing the point. There seems to be preoccupation with attributing features to Ferrari first and that others have not done anything special, or Ferrari did it first which you can see reading different sections of forum (there's a comment about vanity panels attributed to one team on this page and it's not the first off comment along these lines in the forum which just seems random). I'm not actually concerned about this. The big picture is simply that one car is now very much like another in it's concept.