McLaren MP4-12C

[Pup]

All these points are incremental improvements if they are real at all and do not constitute a unique customer advantage as I have already pointed out. Nobody but a few geeks will buy the car for the manufacturing method of the cabin frame.

Again, that just sounds like sour grapes. There are more apparent differences between a McLaren and a Porsche than there are between a BMW and a Honda.

[marcush.]

Yes, the design of the crash structure is appealing in it's simplicity. Whether that simplicity translates into a real-life advantage we'll have to see, though I don't see why it shouldn't. Mercedes made a big hoo-hah over the carbon crash structures in the SLR, but I can't imagine the repair bill associated with that in anything over a fender-bender.

All in all, Mac seem to be making very pragmatic choices in the design here. They're using CF only where it counts, yet are able to get a major marketing buzz from it. The tub itself, seemingly cheap and cheaply transported, may well be a big cost advantage to them as well.

Contrary to what WB is suggesting, I think the idea of the tub in itself is enough to drive a lot of interest in the car. Add to that the McLaren mystique and track record of obsessive build quality and I think they'll have no problem whatsoever clearing their showrooms.

And who knows, maybe the car will actually perform well, too.

+1 i think the petrolhead who can afford a Mclarenor anything for 200K € will be intrigued by the aspect to have a Carbonfibre Chassis ..when everyone else braggs around about the modern Aluminium chassis...

[Pup]

Yeah, I think the tub is exactly the sort of thing that people who are looking at this car will get off on. I mean, purchases like this are tenuously justifiable at best, and having something concrete that a buyer can point to to rationalize his investment can make all the difference.

Remember, people aren't at their most rational when it comes to things like this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeMwcl6p_E[/youtube]

[xpensive]

All these points are incremental improvements if they are real at all and do not constitute a unique customer advantage as I have already pointed out. Nobody but a few geeks will buy the car for the manufacturing method of the cabin frame.

Again, that just sounds like sour grapes. There are more apparent differences between a McLaren and a Porsche than there are between a BMW and a Honda.

Sour grapes indeed, probably down to the indisputable fact that the MP4-12C makes the SLS look like a Lomdon bus.

This bracket of car buyers are to the vast majority down to image, very few of these cars will ever be driven in anger.
Given the choice between the MP4 and the SLS, or any Ferrari for that matter, to park in Cannes, that's a no brainer.

[WhiteBlue]

It probably comes down to the same kind of people who bought an Audi A2 with a never rusting aluminum frame and a sensible engine compared to a Mercedes A class. The A2 was light years ahead for just the same reasons you are giving. Unfortunately it never became a business to build them. But perhaps in the expensive sports car segment the geek factor makes a difference as some people think. Even if your total cost of ownership is 1% lower due to a 10% lower insurance rate due to 30% lower accident repair bills few rational people will have their choice influenced by that. I have heard of very few people who had their Ferraris rust away from lengthy exposure to rain and salt water.

[Pup]

I believe the A2's sales were hindered mainly by its looking like a turd on wheels. Regardless, I'm not convinced the typical A2 buyer is in McLaren's target audience. I could be wrong.

[marcush.]

the A2 is a god example in my view.
It already is a modern icon.prieces are on the way up already.
some people realised how special and advanced it was the masses just hated the shape..in germany it was called:slice of bread...
the Mclaren has not to attract a broad customer base..the people who would buy this are driven by their desire or urge to buy something special.Mclaren offers unique features and ,without a doubt has a reputation for perfection..if they can sustain this perception they will succeed.
A boat or yacht is something like this ..you really hook on the sales concept how
the thing is sold to you ...a far cry from porsche ,lambo,ferrari stile ..in a more or less traditional counter sale...

[WhiteBlue]

I believe the A2's sales were hindered mainly by its looking like a turd on wheels. Regardless, I'm not convinced the typical A2 buyer is in McLaren's target audience. I could be wrong.

We were not talking of the same segment. We were talking about the geek factor of manufacturing technologies that people cannot even see on their vehicle. And I have conceded that it may work better on a person who blows € 200,000 on an exclusive sports car than a family looking for a micro van. Still I doubt that it will have the impact that some people think it will have.

[marcush.]

I have had that book -driving ambition- that covers the gestation of the famous F1 ....I´m sure that a lot of this legend will caryy over quite easily to the MP4-12c.
I think that people who are into cars and have the money have a good idea of what Mclaren did back then and what is on the plate now.

[Pup]

I'd like to know what exactly this 'geek factor' is that you keep bringing up, WB. People only buy cars like this for ego or passion; and if you're discounting passion as irrelevant, then I think you took a wrong turn somewhere. Or are you trying to use the term in a passive-aggressively insulting way? Because I suspect quite a few here would rather embrace the term.

[WhiteBlue]

I believe that you need to be very deeply involved to understand, discuss and appreciate the advantages of a hybrid chassis design from CF Resin Transfer Molded and aluminum extruded parts vs a fully aluminum chassis. There may be many such people on this F1 and technical oriented board but I doubt that many seriously rich people belong to this group. I do not see the term geek as pejorative in any way.

I think that people buy cars for many different reasons including, cost/performance ratio, brand recognition, exterior/interior design, ego, admiration of certain technologies like engines, sound and nationality of the make. We can probably find some more. If they buy a car for some invisible technology I think that geekiness or geek factor would make a good name for this. I also think that this kind of buying reason isn't very wide spread.

[marcush.]

for sure anyone today has heard about carbonfibres..it is associated with extremely axpensive and high tech and advanced.
I think a carbonfibre chassis car for that sort of money is value .(KTM x-bow not a car really)

[Pup]

WB, I think your argument underestimates the amount of car guys out there, even among the vulgar rich. Sure, there are those who just want flash; and for them, there's Ferrari.

[Jon]

for sure anyone today has heard about carbonfibres..it is associated with extremely axpensive and high tech and advanced.
I think a carbonfibre chassis car for that sort of money is value .(KTM x-bow not a car really)

When you say "for sure anyone..." you mean "everyone", right?

With this in mind, I just asked the girl in the cubicle next to mine if she knew what carbonfibre was...she produced a blank stare, then said..."I've heard my dad talk about it, but I've never paid attention to him."

Granted, she is not filthy rich, but the point is, not everyone know this stuff.

[marcush.]

i meant everyone..sorry for that ..
Of course not every one knows but then you could have asked as well what is an 8zylinder engine or a turbo or cornering gs or whathaveyou...if ther is no basic interest nothing catches your imagination..apart from sitting in something like this and feeling the sensation of course chris goodwin driving...!
everyone in a certain age knows what and app is simply because you can have it doing a few clicks.
But reat assured not everyone knows what an eggplant is as well or what you would call it in german ,italien or french ...internet has not made us know more really but at least you´re just a few clicks away from getting an idea of it at least.