Is F1 getting boring?

[machin]

I can foresee strategies of waiting to pass at the last opportunity before the race ends. Sort of like bikes.

Or try and break away from the main pack at any point during the race and then try and stay clear...

Oooo, I do love road race cycling... especially now they've started to outlaw radios... a very tactical sport, and very interesting from an aerodynamics point of view too.

[machin]

KERS isn't a differentiator once every team has it.

It is if you can only deploy it when you're within 1 second of the car infront.... like my "Virtual slipstreaming" idea.

The suggestion earlier in the thread of an extra 1,000 rpm (or whatever) released through the standard ECU when within a second of the car in front is a real differentiator, and something to definitely be considered IMO.

Thanks!

[Just_a_fan]

I think they've just got to bite the bullet and create another performance differentiator that doesn't reply on aero to allow more over-taking. Personally I think the engine/transmission/KERS system needs to provide this diffenertiator....

KERS isn't a differentiator once every team has it

Part of of the tactical game will be trying to get the other guy to use his KERS at an inopportune moment so that you can use yours later in the lap to good effect. Of course, that would need tracks with more than 1 overtaking option available to the drivers...

[flynfrog]

why not grease the track look at rain races. lots of overtaking.

[Just_a_fan]

So what we've learnt from the past "few" pages is that:-

Lots of downforce and relatively little mechanical grip makes overtaking difficult, -yes, maybe the wake field can be improved, but either way, lots of downforce kills overtaking.

When did we learn that? Some people have loudly proclaimed that but there is no evidence of it.

Indeed, I posted a link to a site that shows overtake stats back to 1983 which is when "ground effect cars" were banned. Since then, overtaking reduced 'til about 1993-5 and it's been fairly level since then. Some better years, some less good years but none nearly as plentiful as the days before downforce was really limited.

[PNSD]

Not read all the read, but why not place a limit on wing surface area for the front and rear, maybe something like Monza levels, then abandon the flat floor and introduce tunnels, albeit heavily regulated tunnels, such as the ones seen on the first GP2 car?

[machin]

Is there any data for the period before there was lots of downforce?

I know I quote it all the time, but Formula Ford (a non-spec formula, apart from the engine) has no downforce and lots (and I mean LOTS) of overtaking.

[Pandamasque]

Does any of the aero guys here watch sportscars? Le Mans prototypes have lots of DF but somehow able to follow each other very closely through the corners. What's the trick? The tyres are quite different, but what about the aero? Overtaking isn't supposed to be easy, it just supposed to possible and worth trying (which usually doesn't happen in F1).

Regarding downforce restrictions it would make little sense to ask Adrian Newey or Nick Tombazis about this question. They would always argue that something else is at fault. When you ask where to prune the F1 tree none of the aerodynamicists would cut the branch off they are sitting on.

Wasn't it Newey who suggested that the 'balance' must be shifted from aero towards mechanical grip? Or it could be Brawn. I remember reading something like that last year.

[Just_a_fan]

Is there any data for the period before there was lots of downforce?

I know I quote it all the time, but Formula Ford (a non-spec formula, apart from the engine) has no downforce and lots (and I mean LOTS) of overtaking.

Formula Ford has one other factor - hugely varying driver skill levels.

The single most important factor in overtaking is that the lead driver can be made to make a mistake. Pressure is key.

The drivers in F1 are not the sort who, the odd time excepted of course, are easily pressured into making mistakes.

[marcush.]

Is there any data for the period before there was lots of downforce?

I know I quote it all the time, but Formula Ford (a non-spec formula, apart from the engine) has no downforce and lots (and I mean LOTS) of overtaking.

Formula Ford has one other factor - hugely varying driver skill levels.

The single most important factor in overtaking is that the lead driver can be made to make a mistake. Pressure is key.

The drivers in F1 are not the sort who, the odd time excepted of course, are easily pressured into making mistakes.

+1

[machin]

The drivers in F1 are not the sort who, the odd time excepted of course, are easily pressured into making mistakes

...Even more reason to introduce a temporary power boost to allow the following driver to get close to the car in front.....

[WhiteBlue]

All the drivers comment I have read so far indicate that mechanical grip needs to be improved and aero grip reduced.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 32502.html

It's not the weakness of the tyre, its the weakness of the rule," the Brazilian said in Melbourne. "We need more mechanical grip and less aerodynamic, its the only solution.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 32404.html

They should listen to the drivers...They stole us some mechanical grip by downsizing the front tyres. At the same time the cars have better aerodynamics compared to last year. The problem is you lose downforce when you follow another car and the mechanical grip isn't there.

So in addition to cutting downforce to 1.2 tons we should have wider tyres front and rear, wider tracks, and harder tyres to avoid marbles.

[raceman]

All the drivers comment I have read so far indicate that mechanical grip needs to be improved over aero grip.

It's not the weakness of the tyre, its the weakness of the rule," the Brazilian said in Melbourne. "We need more mechanical grip, its the only solution.

So in addition to cutting downforce to 1.2 tons we should have wider tyres front and rear, wider tracks, and harder tyres to avoid marbles.

I think RB is quite rite here! Having more mechanical grip will empower drivers to think on making a move whilst they have increased confidence in cornering and breaking with the more mechanical grip. Wider tyres, yes, bring them on!

[Ogami musashi]

All the drivers comment I have read so far indicate that mechanical grip needs to be improved over aero grip.

It's not the weakness of the tyre, its the weakness of the rule," the Brazilian said in Melbourne. "We need more mechanical grip, its the only solution.

So in addition to cutting downforce to 1.2 tons we should have wider tyres front and rear, wider tracks, and harder tyres to avoid marbles.

I think RB is quite rite here! Having more mechanical grip will empower drivers to think on making a move whilst they have increased confidence in cornering and breaking with the more mechanical grip. Wider tyres, yes, bring them on!

Yeah more grip for tyres! like that braking distances in all slow and medium corners will be even less..


Having more mechanical grip is not the solution in itself, you have to be sure the downforce loss is not worse and guess what happens when you cut downforce by cutting dimensions?? Less finess...more wake! yeah!

What we've learned from this thread is that people like to spin on their random dreams, nobody added nothing...as usual.

[machin]

Surely if mechanical grip is increased it will affect all cars, and therefore a leading car will have more confidence to brake later just as much as the chasing car and therefore the same situation occurs -stalemate.

I hear the argument about lower "quality" of drivers in formulae like formula ford... and this would explain more overtaking in the corners, but actually a lot of overtaking in FF and others like Caterhams occurs on the straights as a result of slipstreaming... its not so much the guy in front making a mistake its simply that the car behind has a distinct performance advantage over the car infront (in this case the slipstream effect) ...Its very exciting racing to watch. If F1 could replicate this style of racing (e.g. with a temporary power boost) I think we'd all love it; high cornering speeds (from the downforce) whilst also having lots of overtaking too...