McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

[PNSD]

not at all its called reality pal you want me to dig up some facts for you?
jensons demands could potantially hurt mclaren, espeically on development through the year, his need for a stable rear end might possibly take time and resource away from other develpoments, is it a just by chance that mclaren didnt develop quite as well last y year as in others?

I hope you are joking.

Mclaren didnt develop quite as well as 2009 because they started off with a good car, so relative to the other teams there was less of a chance to show the improvement. And you say other years? What other years... Mclaren developed as well last year as any other of the championship contending years. They had trouble with the EBD but once they sorted it everything was fine.

And yes please please please dig up these facts of Jensons input hurting the team. I would love to hear them.

[feynman]

McLaren didn't develop quite as well as 2009 ... cos they didn't develop well in 2009.

Am I the only one that has no idea where this myth came from (Eddie Jordan?), McLaren hailed as some kind of 12foot tall, gold-plated, fur-lined, relentless development machine.

It never happened.

They turned up with a slow car, panicked, spent(wasted) time and resource to patch it up for the Spain race, knowing those efforts would all have to be thrown away ... and then mid season did what everyone else had done pre-season, bolted on an outwash front wing.
That's it, all their gain for the year came in one lump at the Nurburgring. Nothing else after it. I genuinely have no idea why people choose to repeat the myth.


Their development in 2010 was pretty woeful.
They weren't helped by all the Friday rain, for sure, but how many times did new front wings fail to stay on the car till Sunday, week after week, check the 25 thread you'll even see them backtrack in frontwing and start again, how many attempts to get that rear wing sorted, the collapse in form with a fumbled EBD implementation, they weren't even the best team on the grid at developing the f-duct, and had to start to copy others.


Against that background, where a team structure has now clearly and repeatedly shown marginal scope for huge in-season development, if they don't have a lot, then every little counts ... I therefore don't see what is contentious about saying they don't have enough development elbow-room to potentially get distracted trying to chase two, potentially mutually exclusive, seperate development tracks at one time.

One guy wants to dance the back in, one guy want to roll it in ... Whitmarsh is probably going to have to make a decision there ... if the new car doesn't crush the Ferrari and the Red Bull and the Mercedes straight out the box, he can't afford to waste any time and resource on redundant or counterproductive development streams.
He'll need to pick one, put everything on it, and even then it'll be a struggle to close the gaps.

[marcush.]

the terminology of development speed is wrong in my eyes.

The car we see in testing and going to the first race is two points on the timeline of the development already.
So tbh what you bring to the test and 1st race is already showing not only the basic soundness of your concepts but also the quality and speed of your development .

The lame duck will have to bring a car to the test which might drive but is not quick enough...and will struggle to keep in sight developing as quickly as the ones in front.

In my view big steps forward are caused by big chunks left on the plate beforehand.

If you cannot find what´s on the table ...you might be looking at the wrong one or you are too short to see even what is there.obviously the taller ones grab the good pieces from it so you can see there is something but that will not enable you to find those meaty pieces with confidence...

[ell66]

not at all its called reality pal you want me to dig up some facts for you?
jensons demands could potantially hurt mclaren, espeically on development through the year, his need for a stable rear end might possibly take time and resource away from other develpoments, is it a just by chance that mclaren didnt develop quite as well last y year as in others?

I hope you are joking.

Mclaren didnt develop quite as well as 2009 because they started off with a good car, so relative to the other teams there was less of a chance to show the improvement. And you say other years? What other years... Mclaren developed as well last year as any other of the championship contending years. They had trouble with the EBD but once they sorted it everything was fine.

And yes please please please dig up these facts of Jensons input hurting the team. I would love to hear them.

strong reading comprehension.
the "facts"i was talking about, was todo with how superior lewis was to jenson last year.
the point i was trying to make about the car and its develpoment is lets say mcalren start the year with a very fast but difficult car to drive, maybe the backend comes loose etc... well we all know jenson doesnt like that so he would drive development away from kaing the car faster into just making him feel more comfortable.

my last comment was a bit in jest about this years car, i dont really think jenson was to blame.

[ell66]

McLaren didn't develop quite as well as 2009 ... cos they didn't develop well in 2009.

Am I the only one that has no idea where this myth came from (Eddie Jordan?), McLaren hailed as some kind of 12foot tall, gold-plated, fur-lined, relentless development machine.

It never happened.

They turned up with a slow car, panicked, spent(wasted) time and resource to patch it up for the Spain race, knowing those efforts would all have to be thrown away ... and then mid season did what everyone else had done pre-season, bolted on an outwash front wing.
That's it, all their gain for the year came in one lump at the Nurburgring. Nothing else after it. I genuinely have no idea why people choose to repeat the myth.


Their development in 2010 was pretty woeful.
They weren't helped by all the Friday rain, for sure, but how many times did new front wings fail to stay on the car till Sunday, week after week, check the 25 thread you'll even see them backtrack in frontwing and start again, how many attempts to get that rear wing sorted, the collapse in form with a fumbled EBD implementation, they weren't even the best team on the grid at developing the f-duct, and had to start to copy others.


Against that background, where a team structure has now clearly and repeatedly shown marginal scope for huge in-season development, if they don't have a lot, then every little counts ... I therefore don't see what is contentious about saying they don't have enough development elbow-room to potentially get distracted trying to chase two, potentially mutually exclusive, seperate development tracks at one time.

One guy wants to dance the back in, one guy want to roll it in ... Whitmarsh is probably going to have to make a decision there ... if the new car doesn't crush the Ferrari and the Red Bull and the Mercedes straight out the box, he can't afford to waste any time and resource on redundant or counterproductive development streams.
He'll need to pick one, put everything on it, and even then it'll be a struggle to close the gaps.

complete and utter rubbish on all acounts.
with the 2009 season they panicked until spain like you said to get new parts on, then eventually they got a big upgrade in germany which turned there season round, and it was FAR more than just a front wing. and YES they improved after that as well, they were only qualyfing in 4th around that time (germany, hungary) but at the end of the year hamilton was on pole in singapore and abu dabi and as high as 3rd on a high speed track like suzuka, so stop talking rubbish.

As for this past year, i feel theres been a misconception on the develpment. the reasons being 1. they talked up there blown diffuser update to much. 2. ferrari came back strong, but only after a terrible loss of form. 3. they had a big advantage of the f-duct early doors which everyone added after.

the 25 performance was circuit related to the extreme, nothing todo with develpment and im positive that had abu dabi (where mclaren were the fastest with redbull) been the first race of the year, theyd of been the 3rd quickest team there.

im shocked about your comment on there front wings also, everytime they brought a proper front wing update like at silverstone and singapore it was retained. your talking about when they try minor tweaks which ALL the teams do. red bull espiecally! i remember hearing all the time how vettela and webber turned down there slightly adjusted new front wing.

facts: get them right.

[Formula None]

This could possibly be the most rubbish thread in the forum at the moment.

Edit: forty-two requested I spell this out for him. This thread is titled MP4-26 and is 25 or so pages in length, yet contains no information on the car's design or legitimate images, only inane prattle about drivers and paint. The mods would serve us well to start a new thread and lock this one when the 26 is released.

[forty-two]

This could possibly be the most rubbish thread in the forum at the moment.

And your contribution improves it how exactly?

[feynman]

complete and utter rubbish on all acounts.

facts: get them right.

How much time did they add from Nurburgring 09 on, what developments appeared on the car ... please list them.
Once they sent the airflow round the front tyres, the rest of the car started working properly.

Every other senior, old school, aero guy from all the other teams looked at the car in testing and realised they'd completely missed the trick.
McLaren dev 2009, 2 and a half seconds, hushed tones, yada yada, was bolt on an outwash, end of. It was the basics, nothing greater. They should have got a pounding for having missed it, not lauded for taking half a season to put right their mistake.


2010 saw huge tracts of the front wing not working as expected, they took months to get it right, I am not talking about a Renault style conveyor belt of refinements and tweaks; no, they were all over the place. Nothing worked from the factory the way it was supposed to, and that's me quoting the team. They were going backwards and forwards for race after race with wing shape. Including a major backtrack and reset.
The final rear wing started working adequately only after months of aborted attempts. The f-duct stayed static and undeveloped, till too late. The soggy EBD midseason sank them. (Mercedes-Benz HPE excluded, they made a lovely off-throttle noise).
Their world champion drivers finished 4th and 5th, is that facts enough for you?

At best, they have shown nothing better than adequate development over a season, but definitely not superior. Which would maybe be acceptable, but given their recent tradition of not hitting the start of season with anything like the best car, then that's gonna be a problem for them.

Whitmarsh is quoted that they need a much better, and sustained, development rate. Quantity and quality.


If they don't get that, then the guy in this threads point still stands ... they won't have the luxury to develop two tracks, so someone is gonna have to decide. If Lewis wants it to go one way, and Jenson wants it the other, who they gonna back? One, either or neither.


I don't get why you're crying at me, dry your eyes son, it's not my fault McLaren development isn't all that great, or certianly not as great as some like to pretend or delude themselves. It is decidedly average.
That resultant horrific gap in Constructors trophies isn't my fault. Go blame them, and leave me out of it.

[wesley123]

With their update rate is nothing wrong, in fact they develop faster than others. The part where they go wrong is that updates do not work as expected. Last year they ran like 20 or so different versions of front wings, when only 7 of them where raced.

[ell66]

complete and utter rubbish on all acounts.

facts: get them right.

How much time did they add from Nurburgring 09 on, what developments appeared on the car ... please list them.
Once they sent the airflow round the front tyres, the rest of the car started working properly.

Every other senior, old school, aero guy from all the other teams looked at the car in testing and realised they'd completely missed the trick.
McLaren dev 2009, 2 and a half seconds, hushed tones, yada yada, was bolt on an outwash, end of. It was the basics, nothing greater. They should have got a pounding for having missed it, not lauded for taking half a season to put right their mistake.


2010 saw huge tracts of the front wing not working as expected, they took months to get it right, I am not talking about a Renault style conveyor belt of refinements and tweaks; no, they were all over the place. Nothing worked from the factory the way it was supposed to, and that's me quoting the team. They were going backwards and forwards for race after race with wing shape. Including a major backtrack and reset.
The final rear wing started working adequately only after months of aborted attempts. The f-duct stayed static and undeveloped, till too late. The soggy EBD midseason sank them. (Mercedes-Benz HPE excluded, they made a lovely off-throttle noise).
Their world champion drivers finished 4th and 5th, is that facts enough for you?

At best, they have shown nothing better than adequate development over a season, but definitely not superior. Which would maybe be acceptable, but given their recent tradition of not hitting the start of season with anything like the best car, then that's gonna be a problem for them.

why are exagerating every single statement? do you know how much time they added before nurburging? NO! and like i said before there update was FAR more than just a front wing it also included engine cover, floor, diffuser and rear body work.
as for the further develpments that year, they included a new front wing at valencia, new diffuser at singapore. and my post before regarding there competetivens proves my theory oh and if it wasnt a good feat in solving there problems then why couldnt any of the other teams do it? theywant from being literally the slowest car in winter testing to the fastest or joint fastest depending on the track at the end of the year, but yeah not impressive at all

They never had any front wing problems last year, where did you pluck that one from? they just develped it more and more. and again the big updates at silverstone and singapore worked and stayed on. show me some of your facts smart arse.
renault were an exception with there front wings, but the red bulls were very similar, chopping and changing depending on the drivers feel and track characteristics.

the new f-duct took 2 races to get right, not "months" so wrong again there im afraid buddy.
So what lewis and jenson finished 4th and 5th? that doesnt reflect there develpment rate, they were 3rd quickest through winter testing and at the first few races.

and to your final comment, i never said they were the best developers, instead i was simply calling you out on the bullshit you wrote.

[ringo]

I wouldn't question their development capability, what i am skeptical about is the leadership in the development department or whatever dept. deals with the direction of the improvements.
They tend not to figure out the underlying problem with the car because they try to do too much at once and solve issues that aren't directly linked to the thing that's preventing the car from working like they expect.
They may be too smart for their own good, factoring in countless elements and losing focus in the process.
Ferrari are more effective with developments though not as numerous.

The time is passing a bit slowly, and Mclaren aren't releasing any teaser photos like last time. At least show us a drink bottle or wheel nut!!

[forty-two]

I actually have respect for McLaren for NOT leaking any teaser images. Some which have apparently been leaked by other teams are IMO quite depressing. Mostly because those which I've seen thus far have been iffy photoshop mashups, usually with a considerable amount of "healing brush" work and messed up lighting.

I say it adds to the enigma of a team if they keep it under wraps until they're actually ready to release some real images, but perhaps that's just me.

On the topic of development, it's a hard one to balance, especially with the current restrictions on testing. I know myself when looking at code, it's really easy to fix one bug and introduce five more. I can't imagine what performing bug-fixes and adding new functionality at the same time would be like if allowed no proper testing time! I expect with a real life object such as an F1 car, the same is more than true!

Perhaps McLaren didn't do AS well on in-season development during 2010 as they did in 2009, but they certainly didn't seem to be overly stressed about it. Perhaps this is simply good PR management, but I always had the impression that they had things under control with the possible exception of how to emulate Red Bull's bendy FW.

[feynman]

theywant from being literally the slowest car in winter testing to the fastest or joint fastest depending on the track at the end of the year, but yeah not impressive at all

No, they stayed poor (9th, 12th, 13th, 16th) right up until Nurburgring practise and the proper front wing (then did nothing but 1st, 2nd 3rds, where he didn't crash out)

Do you see the difference, the before, the after ... the switch; do you see the end of the after not much improving on the beginning of the after, in fact maybe tailing off, more 3rds than 1sts.

2009 was a myth. There was no relentless sustained development, there was one front wing that they should have had pre-season and that was it.
It is not a complicated or subtle point, the only confusion here is how you managed to confuse yourself about it, or allowed yourself to be fed a line.


This is exactly why "fans" rightly deserve all the scorn, contempt and derision they get ... blinkered and easily led by the nose, to the point they wilfully discount what their own eyes or the result-sheet clearly tells them.

... i was simply calling you out on the bullshit you wrote.

Did I stoop to call your over-excited replies that you wrote bullshit, did I?
No.
Why don't you try to have even the lightest modicum of respect for other posters to this board. You should calm down a little I think.
It's not my fault you got suckered, and now feel embarrassed about it when called out in public, but there's no need to lash out.

The fact you can't discuss this in a calm and civil manner pretty much tells everyone all they need to know about you and your argument.

[adrianjordan]

Your suggestion assumes that none of the other teams carried on developing their cars...

For McLaren to stay at the same level relative to RBR they must have carried on developing the car at the same rate as RBR...

Anyway, I think we should ALL try and keep this thread on topic and talk about the MP4-24/25 or paint or any of the number of other things in the appropriate threads...

[ell66]

theywant from being literally the slowest car in winter testing to the fastest or joint fastest depending on the track at the end of the year, but yeah not impressive at all

No, they stayed poor (9th, 12th, 13th, 16th) right up until Nurburgring practise and the proper front wing (then did nothing but 1st, 2nd 3rds, where he didn't crash out)

Do you see the difference, the before, the after ... the switch; do you see the end of the after not much improving on the beginning of the after, in fact maybe tailing off, more 3rds than 1sts.

2009 was a myth. There was no relentless sustained development, there was one front wing that they should have had pre-season and that was it.
It is not a complicated or subtle point, the only confusion here is how you managed to confuse yourself about it, or allowed yourself to be fed a line.


This is exactly why "fans" rightly deserve all the scorn, contempt and derision they get ... blinkered and easily led by the nose, to the point they wilfully discount what their own eyes or the result-sheet clearly tells them.

... i was simply calling you out on the bullshit you wrote.

Did I stoop to call your over-excited replies that you wrote bullshit, did I?
No.
Why don't you try to have even the lightest modicum of respect for other posters to this board. You should calm down a little I think.
It's not my fault you got suckered, and now feel embarrassed about it when called out in public, but there's no need to lash out.

The fact you can't discuss this in a calm and civil manner pretty much tells everyone all they need to know about you and your argument.

are you unable to read??? WINTER TESTING i said, i made no mention of race results, but only of the perfomance of the car when first launched. and i think we'd all agree that qualy is better indication of a cars pace rather than race results, especially when you have as good a racer a lewis.

lol at you still believing it was all in the front wing. if that was the case theyd of been competetive from the second race, you cant just bolt on a front wing...but really you should know that

and still not accepting how well they continued to develop in 2009, i remember discussion on this board about why would they do such a thing when they should be fully focusing on 2010. so please take away your opinionated and factless statements and gtfo this thread.

note to mods delete both our comments, its derailing the thread.