2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[PhillipM]

It doesn't tell the whole story given the regulation changes however - if you look at MCL33 vs MCL34 rear wings at Paul Ricard you'll see the exact same trend of running far more wing this year, you'd need to compare to the rest of the grid too.

[Sieper]

That is interesting. The wing angle difference is indeed massive. So the tires, the loss of blown axles, the less big bargeboards and I guess mainly the loss of the cascade (and other changes) on the FW have made the underfloor flow this year that much less that they (all?) need to change the RW angle this drastically to have enough DF to keep the rear semi planted.

I would have never believed (I still have a hard time) that the FW air "moulding / shifting" can make such a difference.

The Low rake cars have been given a huge advantage it seems. All under the motto of better close racing. Well, what close racing, the only low rake car in the top is so far out of reach it is just a joke.

[SmallSoldier]

I wonder why people are so obsessed with power when the car is clearly having issues. Truth be told, Red Bull build excellent chassis, so it's easy to automatically think that if Red Bull have a problem, it must be with the engine. When a driver says, I have no grip, the rear is unstable, how can that be a problem for the engine. Haas struggled with grip, is anybody wondering about the PU? Williams?? I think it's safe to say that Ferrari and Mercedes are still ahead, no argument there. Red Bull are no strangers to winning races with less power than their rivals, because they've usually had a good chassis. So even if Red Bull has less power than the top 2, which has always been the case, the real reason they're not challenging for wins is because they built a car that, by their high standards, isn't good enough. After all, Red Bull told Honda get us within x amount of HP, we'll do the rest. From all I've heard from Red Bull, Marko, Max, Horner, they've all said Honda delivered as promised.

Probably the only inconsistency in regards to the their chassis been good or bad is with Monaco... In Monaco, Red Bull had a great race, Max would have finished 2nd if not for the scramble on the pit lane with Bottas.

In a race, where the Chassis has more weight on the overall performance of the car, Red Bull looked really good... That makes it seem as if the Chassis (even though probably not the best in the grid as in past years) is still arguably the second best behind Mercedes.


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[j.yank]

I am not sure why Renault PU is promoted as more powerful than Honda when Verstapen out qualified all Renault cars, and the closest of them during the race was on 60 sec behind him? Also, this is strange that pilots of Toro Rosso are among the top five quick cars in all speed sectors with the supposedly weak Honda PU. From what I saw in France I think that Honda have done very big step in PU effectiveness and they either can run more time per lap on max power and/or can run with less fuel. This is the only viable explanation how Max can keep the pace of Ferrari that has more power and run with less downforce.

[rogazilla]

...
point is both parties underestimated the steps taken by Mercedes and Ferrari in the winter,as been said by Marko..
thats lack of professionalism, we can argue alot but eventually both sides didn't deliver.
this is year 5 for Honda .. always start the season on the back foot, they have a golden opportunity to shine now call MAX.. chassis not very good but you won't finish a full minute of the midfield and have an equal pace to Ferrari with a turd one.. since Tanabe admit it him self Honda lack power to front runners.
they need to introduce a power upgrades and to start 2020 season in equal power as Mercs and Ferrari.

Underestimated? Sure but more in a sense of underestimated the regulation changes. The team surely work flat out. Remember Merc brought 2 specs of car between week 1 test and week 2 test and with resource allowed they have found the right solution. We now know most of the team's car are struggling with the tires. RBR still can't keep the tires in window through the whole lap. When they can't keep the rear end stable, is adding more power the solution?! What good is more power when you can't put it down come out of exit.

Did Honda not deliver? they promised a target and based on everything we read, they delivered on their target. Renault made a step forward in spec 2 and they delivered on that target. Honda promised the power to come in their NEXT update as been stated numerous times. People are so quick to turn on their criticism when Honda was competitive to Renault the first 4 races of the season and all of a sudden it is a piece of crap engine? Honda has been delivering updates as it goes. I look forward to the car update and see where RBR is at after that.We can discuss Honda's progress depending on their next update and if they deliver on their promise.

[SmallSoldier]

That is interesting. The wing angle difference is indeed massive. So the tires, the loss of blown axles, the less big bargeboards and I guess mainly the loss of the cascade (and other changes) on the FW have made the underfloor flow this year that much less that they (all?) need to change the RW angle this drastically to have enough DF to keep the rear semi planted.

I would have never believed (I still have a hard time) that the FW air "moulding / shifting" can make such a difference.

The Low rake cars have been given a huge advantage it seems. All under the motto of better close racing. Well, what close racing, the only low rake car in the top is so far out of reach it is just a joke.

It could also be that the new Front Wings are creating more downforce that in previous years, which seems to be a desirable trait with the current tires (more downforce to generate more energy on the front wheels)... If the FW is indeed creating more downforce, you have to balance the car to avoid having excess oversteer, this will force the teams to run a higher downforce rear wing.


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[Marti_EF3]

I wonder why people are so obsessed with power when the car is clearly having issues. Truth be told, Red Bull build excellent chassis, so it's easy to automatically think that if Red Bull have a problem, it must be with the engine. When a driver says, I have no grip, the rear is unstable, how can that be a problem for the engine. Haas struggled with grip, is anybody wondering about the PU? Williams?? I think it's safe to say that Ferrari and Mercedes are still ahead, no argument there. Red Bull are no strangers to winning races with less power than their rivals, because they've usually had a good chassis. So even if Red Bull has less power than the top 2, which has always been the case, the real reason they're not challenging for wins is because they built a car that, by their high standards, isn't good enough. After all, Red Bull told Honda get us within x amount of HP, we'll do the rest. From all I've heard from Red Bull, Marko, Max, Horner, they've all said Honda delivered as promised.

point is both parties underestimated the steps taken by Mercedes and Ferrari in the winter,as been said by Marko..
thats lack of professionalism, we can argue alot but eventually both sides didn't deliver.
this is year 5 for Honda .. always start the season on the back foot, they have a golden opportunity to shine now call MAX.. chassis not very good but you won't finish a full minute of the midfield and have an equal pace to Ferrari with a turd one.. since Tanabe admit it him self Honda lack power to front runners.
they need to introduce a power upgrades and to start 2020 season in equal power as Mercs and Ferrari.

Same goes to the PU side. How can you beat for 60 seconds a car who was only 0.02 on quali, and being more or less equal to Ferrari on race pace?? It's clear than the engine is delivering on sundays, it's reliable, it have fuel efficiency and can sustain enough power during all race to keep that pace. You're dreaming if 1 second per lap difference with Mclaren and Renault it's only chasis related. When they clearly have problems with the rear end,traction and tires...

Some of you are only blaming Honda because it was the same on Mclaren days, the easy way to discharge frustration while being unable to see the whole picture. Same mistake Mclaren did, ignoring they had tremendous issues on their car too. And for me RBR are doing it right,they know the chasis have issues and admit it, it's the first and most important step to start uping your game, and not to always moan on outside factors.

Renault have not delivered yet (yeah a good Q mode and that's all).It's to be seen if they are reliable. And they have been more time with the Hybrid PU than Honda, plus having experience with the KERS system on the last years of the V8. Honda left years before the KERS, and even with all of that, even with a complete new concept started on 2017, they are now better than the Renault on the race. What give you a nice Q mode for saturdays more than some nice lines on the press?? Because then, on the race, you're losing 1 second per lap. So that means that the PU is not even near on race mode with Honda.

[ispano6]

I wonder why people are so obsessed with power when the car is clearly having issues. Truth be told, Red Bull build excellent chassis, so it's easy to automatically think that if Red Bull have a problem, it must be with the engine. When a driver says, I have no grip, the rear is unstable, how can that be a problem for the engine. Haas struggled with grip, is anybody wondering about the PU? Williams?? I think it's safe to say that Ferrari and Mercedes are still ahead, no argument there. Red Bull are no strangers to winning races with less power than their rivals, because they've usually had a good chassis. So even if Red Bull has less power than the top 2, which has always been the case, the real reason they're not challenging for wins is because they built a car that, by their high standards, isn't good enough. After all, Red Bull told Honda get us within x amount of HP, we'll do the rest. From all I've heard from Red Bull, Marko, Max, Horner, they've all said Honda delivered as promised.

Probably the only inconsistency in regards to the their chassis been good or bad is with Monaco... In Monaco, Red Bull had a great race, Max would have finished 2nd if not for the scramble on the pit lane with Bottas.

In a race, where the Chassis has more weight on the overall performance of the car, Red Bull looked really good... That makes it seem as if the Chassis (even though probably not the best in the grid as in past years) is still arguably the second best behind Mercedes.


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Wrong.

[maguetox]

These are my to cents of the actual RBR situation.

The RBR is the only team of the whole grid that is dealing with 2 major changes, the new aero rules and the change to Honda from Renault. Even if they are been the best chassis builder in the past, RBR had to build a brand new car, not even an evolution will work this year just because of the Honda PU.

Honda is doing a great job from the reliability standpoint of view, we don´t know if is on par with Mercedes or Ferrari, but at this point, most people were expecting at least one blow up like Renault of Mercedes style., but that is not been the case this year. Power wise, per Honda admission, they are behind the top team, yesterday I asked on twitter at Enrique Scalabroni (ex Ferrari designer among other things, @ScalabroniE) what RBR is lacking to challenge the top team and he answered me between 40 and 50 CV, looks a lot to me, but I´m just a simple fan of this circus, if this is true, Honda has been saved of all the Horner bitching because RBR is having their own aero and chassis problems.

Drivers, well not much to say, the situation is more than clear Max is destroying Gasly, RBR needs to find a driver that can bring more points to the team and really help the team in their evolution, at this moment Gasly is adding nothing, unfortunately.

[Sieper]

That is interesting. The wing angle difference is indeed massive. So the tires, the loss of blown axles, the less big bargeboards and I guess mainly the loss of the cascade (and other changes) on the FW have made the underfloor flow this year that much less that they (all?) need to change the RW angle this drastically to have enough DF to keep the rear semi planted.

I would have never believed (I still have a hard time) that the FW air "moulding / shifting" can make such a difference.

The Low rake cars have been given a huge advantage it seems. All under the motto of better close racing. Well, what close racing, the only low rake car in the top is so far out of reach it is just a joke.

It could also be that the new Front Wings are creating more downforce that in previous years, which seems to be a desirable trait with the current tires (more downforce to generate more energy on the front wheels)... If the FW is indeed creating more downforce, you have to balance the car to avoid having excess oversteer, this will force the teams to run a higher downforce rear wing.


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That could be! and then the teams with higher horsepower (or the team that have shedded some downforce with alternative FW designs that seem to give less DF) are likely better able to deal with that. I should like to see a comparison pic of all teams 19 over 18.

[Ground Effect]

I wonder why people are so obsessed with power when the car is clearly having issues. Truth be told, Red Bull build excellent chassis, so it's easy to automatically think that if Red Bull have a problem, it must be with the engine. When a driver says, I have no grip, the rear is unstable, how can that be a problem for the engine. Haas struggled with grip, is anybody wondering about the PU? Williams?? I think it's safe to say that Ferrari and Mercedes are still ahead, no argument there. Red Bull are no strangers to winning races with less power than their rivals, because they've usually had a good chassis. So even if Red Bull has less power than the top 2, which has always been the case, the real reason they're not challenging for wins is because they built a car that, by their high standards, isn't good enough. After all, Red Bull told Honda get us within x amount of HP, we'll do the rest. From all I've heard from Red Bull, Marko, Max, Horner, they've all said Honda delivered as promised.

Probably the only inconsistency in regards to the their chassis been good or bad is with Monaco... In Monaco, Red Bull had a great race, Max would have finished 2nd if not for the scramble on the pit lane with Bottas.

In a race, where the Chassis has more weight on the overall performance of the car, Red Bull looked really good... That makes it seem as if the Chassis (even though probably not the best in the grid as in past years) is still arguably the second best behind Mercedes.


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True, likely second best chassis. But remember, last year, they had the best chassis, 2 tenths over Ferrari in qualifying, over 4 tenths ahead if Mercedes. This year, over 4 tenths behind Mercedes in qualifying. So, it's obviously not as good a chassis as the RB14, they've gone backwards on the chassis side. I strongly believe the 2019 Honda engine in an RB14 level chassis would be good strong enough to win in Monaco. So RB not winning in at least Monaco is down to the car.

[Sieper]

We can't be sure Groundeffect.

RB15 is also built under very different rules. I would so love to have more concrete information of engine potency. Or chassis performance (but as that is a balance, even depending on circuit characteristcis it will always be hard to say something about) but you never get that kind of information, not even about cars 20 years in the passed.

[gokarter]

ideal i hope they put a higher downforce wing at the rear wing used in friday practice replacing the wing they used in this france race and remove those new bits that they put recently and check if those new bit are any effective in Austria. some section of austria need a higher rear wing like the corners leading to start. needs good corner speed.

[seense]

We can't be sure Groundeffect.

Why not? Max said the same on dutch television. The chassis is not as good as last year relatively. Relative to the opposition ofcourse. Performance is always relative.

[gokarter]

i question why the toro rosso has about 7 to 8 km/h top speed difference compared to redbull. i wonder if those new floor and new bits cause more drag than efficent real downforce