Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[Racer X]

Getting sidetracked, but what I am trying to say is maybe some people no matter how good or experienced just can not adapt to that car?
Would another driver just become another Gasly/Albon?

Yeah my bad i side tracked as well bringing up Sebastian. But the main point i wanted to make (by bringing him up) is that some drivers cannot adapt well to certain types of cars. So i absolutely agree so maybe they might be bringing in Sergio or Hulk based on the educated guess that the driver they chose will be not the best suited for being Maxes team mate but rather the best suited to be capable of driving the car in the particular way it needs to be driven. One might need to sit down and watch Max drive technical corners and see how he approaches them* and then compare Hulk and Perez to see who has the most Max/like the most Maxy approach who is the most Maxiest of the drivers out there. lol Maybe some one else will be better off if they can just hit the corners with a similar technique?

[DChemTech]

Albon must be out for Turkey FOR SURE. Seriously, how many more races will RBR put up with basically competing with ONE car? wtaf

Well, look at the other side; what do they have to lose by letting Albon finish the year? 2nd place in WCC is cemented, so is 3th place in WDC. The only benefit would be testing a driver (under rushed, subotopimal conditions) for a couple of races while stirring up a lot and really euthanizing Albon's career (and mental wellbeing, potentially). Why not just wait out those few races and let Albon leave with grace.

[selvam_e2002]

The basic problem with RB is: unable to find right driver for Max who can adopt to the car. If I remember correctly Gassly requested to change the setup of his like however RB denied it.

Just think about Ric. He was par with Max however RB is not used balanced approach with Ric so he left. Now RB is paying for it.

You cannot win WCC and WDC with single driver. I don't think they can be WDC and WCC with Max till 2025. I even doubt whether Max still stick with beyond 2022 as Honda left, Newly is inlining with RP, very difficult period ahead for them.

[graham.reeds]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

On the driver side of things I think Albon will remain as I think that RB have realised that they have a car that Max is flattering and swapping in someone else will just highlight that further.

Hulk and Perez to Haas.

[Just_a_fan]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

[Big Tea]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

Why not the same people who built the engine?
Yes Honda want their people back, But ALL of them?
A skeleton crew of the current engineers heading a skilled self built Red Bull engine company should be quite up to at least keeping the engine going, with what is probably already on the computer for development.

Neither Cosworth or Illmor have any experience with this engine, so who ever gets to work on it is in the same boat, and with the legacy Honda engineers would be just as good.

This 2 years (or what ever it becomes) experience would be a running start for any new engine regs that will be coming in, and should be as good an engine company as any.

Machinery and test equipment, if not commercially available, can be built. It is only experience that companies like those mentioned are known for, and I do not see why this 'created' company cannot be a match for them. With the funding Red Bull should be able to provide I am sure there would be many who are working at Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, as well as Honda themselves who would see it as a prime opportunity to join this 'new' company .

[Just_a_fan]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

Why not the same people who built the engine?
Yes Honda want their people back, But ALL of them?
A skeleton crew of the current engineers heading a skilled self built Red Bull engine company should be quite up to at least keeping the engine going, with what is probably already on the computer for development.

If RedBull can secure the services of enough of the right people from Honda then, yes, that's the way to go. The question was whether, assuming only the IP was available, who would RedBull use to develop the project. My suggestion was on that basis.

[Manoah2u]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

Let's just ignore the fact they're building a V12 for AstonMartin Valkyrie and for the Gordon Murray T50.
Let's completely ignore what Cosworth has been doing road-relevant for the past decades.
Also, let's ignore completely that Ilmor actually is responsible for the Mercedes V6, and that Mario Illien was unsuccessful to fix the Honda engine vibrations and instead it was fixed by HondaJet.

Also just think for a minor second what engine the Williams is having in the back, and where they are in the championship. Does that prove the Merc engine is trash? no it doesnt. Williams is trash.

Now let that sink in and concider the 'cosworth' engines in the back of the lotus/caterhams. Were they bad?
Who were their rivals? Ah, Manor. What engine did manor use? Ferrari. OOOh ookaaay, Cosworth was SSOOOO bad.

Imagine if Cosworth was able to plant or given funds to plant a couple hundred million euro's more in that V8 engine back then, and now imagine that engine was in the Mclaren, or in the Genii, or hell in the RedBull.

Don't be so shortsighted.

[NathanOlder]

I don't think Cosworth would do too well in the hybrid era. Who knows though, they could do well with the Honda engine, but if they had to start from scratch, no way would they be successful.

[6 of 12]

Albon must be out for Turkey FOR SURE. Seriously, how many more races will RBR put up with basically competing with ONE car? wtaf

Well, look at the other side; what do they have to lose by letting Albon finish the year? 2nd place in WCC is cemented, so is 3th place in WDC. The only benefit would be testing a driver (under rushed, subotopimal conditions) for a couple of races while stirring up a lot and really euthanizing Albon's career (and mental wellbeing, potentially). Why not just wait out those few races and let Albon leave with grace.

Fair point

[Big Tea]

I don't think Cosworth would do too well in the hybrid era. Who knows though, they could do well with the Honda engine, but if they had to start from scratch, no way would they be successful.

I think this would be the problem area too. Engineers can follow designs for engine far easier than they can for 'systems' involving so many disciplines.

I also think that the interaction between staff from these areas is the 'secret weapon' at Mercedies.
If it is the 'coffee machine collage'or the 'water cooler rumours mill' they seem to interact with each other to have a holistic team rather than little empires (or I assume from what I have been told and what I have seen, not been there)

Even if someone agreed to provide a system to go with the engine,it is so integrated it would just not keep up by the time the 'engine people' discussed it with the 'mgu-h people' and the 'mgu-k people' and the CPU people, it would be last years problem they were trying to solve.

I have mentioned a few times, no doubt to the annoyance of some, I think there should be some sort of equivalency formula where they (RBR in this case) could run a power train with an equivalent value of the current one.
Be it reduced and simplified electronic gathering and deployment, or what ever is easier to produce and be competitive for a short while, than fall into line with the 'standard'

[JordanMugen]

Now let that sink in and concider the 'cosworth' engines in the back of the lotus/caterhams. Were they bad?
Who were their rivals? Ah, Manor. What engine did manor use? Ferrari. OOOh ookaaay, Cosworth was SSOOOO bad.

Williams replaced Cosworth with Toyota and then Renault because the Cosworth was not good enough.

Imagine if Cosworth was able to plant or given funds to plant a couple hundred million euro's more in that V8 engine back then, and now imagine that engine was in the Mclaren, or in the Genii, or hell in the RedBull.

But they didn't have those funds, and they don't have those funds for a hybrid PU either...

A simple naturally aspirated V12 is a different kettle of fish. It can be designed and specified by just two or three engineers, just like the good ol' days really. [Same for speciality racing gearbox builders, you don't need huge amounts of staff to design that kind of thing.]

Certainly, Cosworth may have the management skill to make a competitive hybrid unit given a pile of funding but they would probably need to hire lots of extra staff for the project anyway.

[Big Tea]

Now let that sink in and concider the 'cosworth' engines in the back of the lotus/caterhams. Were they bad?
Who were their rivals? Ah, Manor. What engine did manor use? Ferrari. OOOh ookaaay, Cosworth was SSOOOO bad.

Williams replaced Cosworth with Toyota and then Renault because the Cosworth was not good enough.

Imagine if Cosworth was able to plant or given funds to plant a couple hundred million euro's more in that V8 engine back then, and now imagine that engine was in the Mclaren, or in the Genii, or hell in the RedBull.

But they didn't have those funds, and they don't have those funds for a hybrid PU either...

A simple naturally aspirated V12 is a different kettle of fish.

Certainly, Cosworth may have the management skill to make a competitive hybrid unit given a pile of funding but they would probably need to hire lots of extra staff for the project anyway.

And most of the staff who were there then have probably retired

[les arcs]

How about this:
Honda sells IP for the PU to Red Bull, Red Bull 'enlists' Cosworth to further develop it.

Thoughts?

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

Why not the same people who built the engine?
Yes Honda want their people back, But ALL of them?
A skeleton crew of the current engineers heading a skilled self built Red Bull engine company should be quite up to at least keeping the engine going, with what is probably already on the computer for development.

Neither Cosworth or Illmor have any experience with this engine, so who ever gets to work on it is in the same boat, and with the legacy Honda engineers would be just as good.

This 2 years (or what ever it becomes) experience would be a running start for any new engine regs that will be coming in, and should be as good an engine company as any.

Machinery and test equipment, if not commercially available, can be built. It is only experience that companies like those mentioned are known for, and I do not see why this 'created' company cannot be a match for them. With the funding Red Bull should be able to provide I am sure there would be many who are working at Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, as well as Honda themselves who would see it as a prime opportunity to join this 'new' company .

Ilmor/illien have current experience with the Honda engine, they are still involved with it and Honda

[Jolle]

Cosworth haven't built a decent F1 engine for about 25 years...I'd be tempted to talk to Ilmor first.

Why not the same people who built the engine?
Yes Honda want their people back, But ALL of them?
A skeleton crew of the current engineers heading a skilled self built Red Bull engine company should be quite up to at least keeping the engine going, with what is probably already on the computer for development.

Neither Cosworth or Illmor have any experience with this engine, so who ever gets to work on it is in the same boat, and with the legacy Honda engineers would be just as good.

This 2 years (or what ever it becomes) experience would be a running start for any new engine regs that will be coming in, and should be as good an engine company as any.

Machinery and test equipment, if not commercially available, can be built. It is only experience that companies like those mentioned are known for, and I do not see why this 'created' company cannot be a match for them. With the funding Red Bull should be able to provide I am sure there would be many who are working at Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, as well as Honda themselves who would see it as a prime opportunity to join this 'new' company .

Ilmor/illien have current experience with the Honda engine, they are still involved with it and Honda

We've seen now that it's not that easy as it looks, building a competitive V6 hybrid that can compete against Mercedes. It took Honda 4 years at least, Ferrari needed cheating and Renault got it wrong lots of times and is stil on the back foot.

As the same goes with PU-chassis, it looks like that for the PU you need a special kind of integration, where you match the design of the hybrid system, the H and M units and the turbo together with the ICE. Very few companies outside of Daimler have the capabilities to do this inhouse of this scale.