Ferrari F2012

[raymondu999]

Here's what Gary Anderson posted on the BBC F1 website:

The Ferrari is not a good car, as everyone in F1 knows, but the damp conditions meant its weaknesses were not as exposed as they are in the dry because the forces through the car are not as great.
It backs up my theory that there is a problem with the front end of the Ferrari, that it cannot cope with lateral forces in corners because the front-tyre contact patch is moving around.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Here's what Gary Anderson posted on the BBC F1 website:

The Ferrari is not a good car, as everyone in F1 knows, but the damp conditions meant its weaknesses were not as exposed as they are in the dry because the forces through the car are not as great.
It backs up my theory that there is a problem with the front end of the Ferrari, that it cannot cope with lateral forces in corners because the front-tyre contact patch is moving around.

I personally think he's a bit full of it. It's clear he has it all wrong, just look at his quote:

Ferrari have been struggling with a lack of front-end grip in fast corners and this wing is an attempt to find more consistent front downforce and prevent the wing from 'stalling' as much

Domenicali from Sky Sports F1

The car at the moment is slow in a straight line and has poor traction and slow corner performance," confirmed Team Principal Stefano Domenicali post-race, "though our high speed corner performance is actually very good."

The F2012 doesn't have problems in fast corners. It's the slow corners and top speed. I think everyone here regardless of where we stand on the suspension agree the car is fine in fast corners and it's slow corners and traction that is the problem. The team admits it's the slow corners too. Maybe he made a mistake and meant to put slow corners, but I doubt it. He's been on and on about the front suspension from day one. He's pretty much the only one in the media that has a problem with the front suspension. The guys at Sky dont think it's the front suspension, and others don't as well.
The evidence is there for objective people.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Ferrari F2012 - gearbox-chassis stiffening arm in Malaysia


http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 5/948.html

From Australia

[munudeges]

It does have a problem in fast corners. We saw it at Barcelona. The tyres were good for about three laps and then they started dropping off quite noticeably. That suggests something more than just a lack of downforce.

I don't know where this myth comes from that this car is fine in fast corners. It most certainly isn't. Malaysia proved it in a way because the conditions largely mitigated the effect of them. That's part of Gary Anderson's point I think.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

It does have a problem in fast corners. We saw it at Barcelona. The tyres were good for about three laps and then they started dropping off quite noticeably. That suggests something more than just a lack of downforce.

I don't know where this myth comes from that this car is fine in fast corners. It most certainly isn't. Malaysia proved it in a way because the conditions largely mitigated the effect of them. That's part of Gary Anderson's point I think.

It's not a myth. The team has the telemetry and knows where the car is ok and where it's bad. Of course you're quick to bring up the race & the wet but the car was fine in fast corners(Fernando at least) in the dry on Friday & Saturday. The car was fine in Australia in the faster corners as well but suffered in the slow ones and top speed.
People can say and think what they want, but the team isn't lying. Yeah let's tell everyone our launch exhaust sucks/isn't working right, we need downforce, less tyre degradation, we need more top speed and better traction in slow corners. And then turn around and lie about fast corners.
Maybe you didn't watch Free Practice but the car wasn't struggling in high speed corners in Malaysia.

[amouzouris]

It does have a problem in fast corners. We saw it at Barcelona. The tyres were good for about three laps and then they started dropping off quite noticeably. That suggests something more than just a lack of downforce.

I don't know where this myth comes from that this car is fine in fast corners. It most certainly isn't. Malaysia proved it in a way because the conditions largely mitigated the effect of them. That's part of Gary Anderson's point I think.

actually this only suggests lack of downforce...the tires are spinning too much and wear out too easily...but if u know better than ferrari..then..

[bhall]

(Citing high speed performance isn't exactly the best way to counter charges of a faulty suspension.)

If the F2012 has any kind of suspension problems, I think they're a byproduct of adjustments made to dampen the effects of their ineffective exhaust. Less rake, stiffer rear = shaky balance, less traction, tire monster.

[f1316]

It does have a problem in fast corners. We saw it at Barcelona. The tyres were good for about three laps and then they started dropping off quite noticeably. That suggests something more than just a lack of downforce.

I don't know where this myth comes from that this car is fine in fast corners. It most certainly isn't. Malaysia proved it in a way because the conditions largely mitigated the effect of them. That's part of Gary Anderson's point I think.

Surely, if the car is initially good in fast corners and then the tyres drop off and it becomes bad in fast corners, that just means it has a problem with tyre degradation? You're saying the car is good in fast corners when the tyres are fine and bad when they're not, which seems to stand to reason, but means the car - not the tyres - is perfectly fine in fast corners.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

(Citing high speed performance isn't exactly the best way to counter charges of a faulty suspension.)

If the F2012 has any kind of suspension problems, I think they're a byproduct of adjustments made to dampen the effects of their ineffective exhaust. Less rake, stiffer rear = shaky balance, less traction, tire monster.

Dude you can believe Xpensive all you want, makes no difference to me. However I made no mention of high speed performance being an indicator there are no suspension problems. I choose to go with Scarbs opinion & various other factors on the suspension not being the problem. But don't put words in my mouth.

[Blackout]

Ferrari F2012 - gearbox-chassis stiffening arm in Malaysia


http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 5/948.html

From Australia

yeah the Renault maybe were the only team to use those arms and now Ferrari uses them thanks to Alonso great Alonso

[munudeges]

Any car can look fine with new tyres and more physical grip but the tyres drop off at such an alarming rate with the Ferrari, especially through faster corners. It's a trait they've had all through testing and it was seen at Barcelona.

Quite often the response is to add yet more downforce because it's perceived that that is where the problem is (yet more 'aero', yer!), but if this is a mechanical problem and the contact patch is moving around then adding yet more downforce won't solve the problem and just serve to create others - sluggish turn-in and responsiveness etc. It's wasted effort in other words. The mechanicals of the car have to keep the contact patch stable so the downforce can do its work. Adding more downforce won't solve that fundamental issue.

Bizarrely, the pull-rod suspension might not be causing any particular issue that is its fault but Ferrari might be having problems adjusting the car as I've said before. That doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with using it though. Gary Anderson goes into a bit more detail below and it makes sense to me even with my limited mechanical understanding:

With a pushrod you can jack weight around the car at different steering angles if the pushrod is mounted on the upright. With steering lock you can unload the outside front wheel for low-speed corners, a bit like putting a soft rollbar in it, and for highspeed corners with less steering lock you can keep the car stiff. You can’t do that with a pullrod. It also changes the steering feeling. With a pushrod you can use the weight jacking as an aid rather than putting on more power assist, which loses you feel. More concerning is what happens over a bump, which tends to break the tyre’s contact patch. The contact patch can be made stable but only by using static negative camber so that it pulls upright under cornering load. But that means it’s less stable under braking.

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

Gary Anderson was the guy who said Mclaren car miss a trick because she is the only one with a low nose ?

[bhall]

(Citing high speed performance isn't exactly the best way to counter charges of a faulty suspension.)

If the F2012 has any kind of suspension problems, I think they're a byproduct of adjustments made to dampen the effects of their ineffective exhaust. Less rake, stiffer rear = shaky balance, less traction, tire monster.

Dude you can believe Xpensive all you want, makes no difference to me. However I made no mention of high speed performance being an indicator there are no suspension problems. I choose to go with Scarbs opinion & various other factors on the suspension not being the problem. But don't put words in my mouth.

You read that entirely wrong.

I don't agree with xpensive when it comes to the front suspension. At one point, I said it was worth considering. So, I did. Meh.

That said, the car is being run with less rake in an attempt to compensate for the absence of exhaust assistance with the diffuser. So, if there is a suspension problem, I think it's actually a setup problem, because of the reasons I stated above.

In other words, the suspension is not inherently flawed. But, the "band aid" they're using makes it look like it is.

Are we on the same page now?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

FWIW here is Joan Villadelprat's take on the Ferrari F2012, front & rear suspensions included.


Good Manel, they have some of those rumors of ferrari front suspension change? does relmente work so bad, the innovative front suspension pull-rod?


I do not think the problem is the suspension. Villadelprat, who knows a lot more than I do all this, he assures me that placing this suspension front and back has been one of the most remarkable successes of Ferrari this year. The problems are more structural: we have to generate more downforce and it probably must modify the front and rear. That means modificadiones in the chassis ... which may force them to pass a new crash test. We'll see how it all ends. But you will not be unemployed, for sure





Yes this is just someones opinion but it's another opinion from a very technical person who like Scarbs is privy to inside information. There is a reason most people in the business & in the know don't believe the front suspension is the problem.. Because it's not. =D>


Edit: @bhall gotcha )

[Lycoming]

Another thing is, we pretty much agree that they have problems with pitch sensitivity... Australia showed how unstable the car was.

I think there is merit to the theory that they have compromised suspension to try and mitigate these effects. Running stiff suspension would combat pitch sensitivity, but it wrecks tyres and could cause the contact patch to slide around.

Mechanically, softer springs will help maintain better contact patch, but aerodynamic and other considerations always necessitate the running of suspension that is probably stiffer than ideal, at least from the tyres point of view. Perhaps Ferrari have been forced to move even further from that ideal.

And it does make sense that there would be "band-aids" like this on the car, they've known its issues for long enough to try and patch it up, but not fix it properly.

And as for that translation... Im not sure I understand. It sounds like hes saying that they require chassis modifications to get more downforce? does that mean the chassis lacks stiffness, or that the chassis itself does not generate adequate downforce? The former is plausible given the addition of that rod to the gearcase for additional stiffness...